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Good morning everyone.

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My name is Elaine Woo and I'm

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one of the principal councils or

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directors of the China team of IP

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experts here at the USPTO's Office

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of Policy International Affairs.

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I would like to welcome everyone to this

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webinar on biopharma patents in China

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litigation licensing and patent linkage.

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According to industry sources,

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China is the world's second largest

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biopharmaceutical market and

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continues to grow at a fast pace,

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particularly as the country's growing

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wealth and rapidly aging population

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creates strong demand for health

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care products in an increasing

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number of diseases including cancers,

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cardiovascular diseases and diabetes.

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The increase of China's by Chinese

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biopharma companies of reflects the

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industry's growth and potential

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and why company formation decline

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in other major markets.

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More than 140 new biotech companies

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emerged in China from 2010.

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To 2020, in recognizing this potential,

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China's policymakers have embarked

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on a mission to advance the industry

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by enacting policies explicitly

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to improve the industry.

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This morning,

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we'll be talking about the new IP

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laws and regulations that China

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has recently enacted as part of

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this overall effort,

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and also as part of its obligations

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to implement the US China Economic

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and Trade Agreement,

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or the Phase one agreement that both

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countries entered into two years ago.

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Let me go ahead and introduce

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the speakers to the program.

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Our first speaker today is Larry

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Lee and Pat Attorney with many

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years experience and expertise,

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the biopharma industry.

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He is part of the USPTO's China

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team of IP experts.

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The Chinese team of China team

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of IP experts here.

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The PTO consists of a dedicated group of

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China IP experts with 11 US based lawyers,

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three IP attached shades that

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are offices in Beijing,

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Guangzhou and Shanghai and five

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China base US Lloyd Excuse ME

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5 China based lawyers.

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All of our lawyers have a very good deal of

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expertise in China IP law as well as U.S.

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law.

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One of our important missions is

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to help improve the IP environment

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in China and also in the US for

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the benefit of our companies,

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whether they are looking to export

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to China or to partner in some way

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with Chinese firms are dealing

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with Chinese made counterfeits

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entering the US or other markets.

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Our next speaker is Jonathan Miao.

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He is with NTD IP attorneys and

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partners in in Beijing office.

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Jonathan joined NTD in 2003 and has

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extensive expertise and experience in

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patent related contentious matters.

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He is now leading a team of specialized

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in providing legal services in the

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fields of chemistry and biotech.

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Jill Ge is with the Shanghai office at

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Allen and Overy in his her next speaker.

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She is this is a UK based

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multinational law firm.

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She has extensive experience in

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patents and trade secret matters

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and routinely advises clients

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in the area of life sciences.

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Lin Sun-Hoffman is a founding partner

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in Leo Jung Chen and Hoffman.

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Doctor Lynn Hoffman is a PAT

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attorney with 20 years experience

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focused on innovative life sciences.

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She has deep knowledge of all

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aspects of patent practice,

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ranging from policy,

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patent prosecution, due diligence,

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opinion work and of course, licensing

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and technology transfer negotiations.

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Each speaker will speak about 10 minutes,

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after which we will have

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moderated panel discussion.

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We will have Q&A period after discussion.

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Please ask questions using the email box.

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Ask China IP at USPTO Gov again,

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ask China IP at uspto.gov.

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Before we start,

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I also wanted to give you an idea of the

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audience that registered for the program.

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We asked on a volunteer basis for

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you to take a short survey with us.

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I want to quickly go through some of

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the results of the survey to give you a

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flavor of those who are attending today.

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While a small number of you took the survey,

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this does offer a snapshot of the audience.

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We first asked the size of the company

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with which you are affiliated.

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61% responded that the size of the

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thousand employees are over 22% of

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those who answered said they were

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from companies between one and.

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50 with the remainder from.

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Companies a little larger than that,

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but under 1000 employees.

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The second question asks what your

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primary lines of business in China were.

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55% of those respondents said that

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they manufactured outside China for

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import and sale in China and 33% or

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manufacturing in China for sale in China,

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16% or manufacturing inside China

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for export outside China.

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The third question asked with the

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primary IP concerns are that your company

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faces the biggest challenges faced by

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companies or patent related challenges,

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followed by concerns

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regarding IP enforcement.

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Other prevalent problems include

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Chinese government pressures to transfer

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technology to Chinese entities,

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Chinese government interferences

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with IP licensing,

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and concerns about protecting

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and enforcing trade secrets.

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We've asked companies to tell us whether,

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over the course of last five years,

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there was any change.

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The IP situation in China.

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53% of those respondents said there

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was a noticeable improvement in the

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enactment of laws that address concerns

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of rights holders regarding enforcement,

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25% said there was improvement,

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but 75 cent percent said there was no change

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with regard to obstacles to IP licensing,

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12% said there was an improvement,

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12% said the situation had gotten

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worse and 75% said there was no

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change regarding pressures from the

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government to transfer technology.

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89% said there was no change.

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Finally.

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With regard to unauthorized disclosure,

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infringement stemming from regulatory

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or other government processes,

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11% said there was an improvement,

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but 89% said there was no change.

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With that,

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let's go ahead and start the program.

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One last thing.

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There will be a post program survey.

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Please click.

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Click on to the link to take a survey.

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We would very much appreciate if you

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do it soon so we can continually

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improve our webinars.

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With that,

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I'm going to turn it over to Larry

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who will give a general overview of

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some of the changes we have seen

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recently in patent related law,

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laws and regulations that deal

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with biopharma, the biopharma area.

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Over to you Larry. Thank you.

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Alright. Thank you, Elaine.

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So just to give you guys the

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sense of the scale in the past,

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I believe a year and three months.

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There were, I don't remember

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the exact number already,

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I think 60 or 80.

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Amended a loss or regulations

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that came out from China,

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so at least a lot has been happening on paper

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and hopefully today through the speakers Jill

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Jonathan Lynn, you can get a sense,

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uh, the some of the early facts of

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these legislations on the ground.

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Of course,

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we only have a very limited time today to

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cover very cover just selected topics,

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but let me try to broaden a bit to

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cover a few just a few topics that

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we don't have time to go through

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in more detail before I do that,

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I want to quickly mention something

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about patent linkage you may have

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heard the pen linkage being referred

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to as early dispute resolution system.

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I think that's the phrase actually

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used in in phase one.

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Agreement between the US and China

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that may be a more precise name,

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even though it's kind of a mouthful to say.

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And just see it's more precise

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because that's kind of a spelled out

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what exactly the patented system is.

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It provides a certainty with

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the early dispute resolution,

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you resolve the dispute before the

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generic goes to the market that that early,

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that certainty for lack of

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a better way to describe it.

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I always try to tell people who perhaps

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don't know the linkage system very well.

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It's a way of avoiding the *****.

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And a generic or biosimilar applicant

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applicant playing Russian roulette.

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In that sense,

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it's kind of a win win system is up course.

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How exactly we implement

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it is still important,

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but fundamentally the concept in my

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mind is always sort of a win win design.

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So with that,

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let me let me move on to a few topics

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that I think our speakers probably don't

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have a whole lot of time to cover.

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The first one is pending extension.

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Term extension.

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You may hear that as sort of pan

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term compensation or even sometimes

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ten term adjustment.

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But in the US law at least ten term

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extension refers to the compensation

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plan term due to marketing approval delay.

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In other words,

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you got your pattern but you cannot

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commercialize your pen because you

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gotta get approval whenever the product.

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Is sort of a medicine or even medical

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device that involves human health.

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I just want to quickly point out,

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uh, many of you may be aware,

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actually the during the draft law process,

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the pen term extension,

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which is compensating the.

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A regulatory approval delay or

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marketing approval delay and also Patent

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term adjustment which is compensating

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for Patent Office delay in the

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draft law process for both the.

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patent law amendment.

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The draft panel amendment rather,

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actually said May compensate,

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may compensate for regulatory delay,

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may compensate for Patent office delay,

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but the final panel law,

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which came into effect,

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I believe June 1st.

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Last year for Patent Term Extension

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and the Patent term adjustment,

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both have the word shall,

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so that's that's a very good

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welcome change from the final

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law compared with the draft law.

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patent term adjustment for of

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course plan for plan office delay

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that that one is not limited to two

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biopharma patterns that's all patterns

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and pattern extension is limited

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00:10:25,821 --> 00:10:28,856
towards those patterns and requires.

284
00:10:28,860 --> 00:10:30,519
A marketing approval.

285
00:10:30,519 --> 00:10:33,284
In addition to our panel

286
00:10:33,284 --> 00:10:36,059
amendment and various measures,

287
00:10:36,060 --> 00:10:41,084
the there's a I think several SPC Ji

288
00:10:41,084 --> 00:10:44,860
traditional interpretations also came out.

289
00:10:44,860 --> 00:10:46,540
In addition,

290
00:10:46,540 --> 00:10:51,196
Cipla also amended its examination guidelines

291
00:10:51,200 --> 00:10:54,560
in that examination guideline amendment.

292
00:10:54,560 --> 00:10:58,214
I want to highlight a rule that

293
00:10:58,214 --> 00:11:00,531
is particularly critical to

294
00:11:00,531 --> 00:11:02,490
the innovative biopharma.

295
00:11:02,490 --> 00:11:05,619
Companies and that relates to order pants,

296
00:11:05,620 --> 00:11:06,270
panties,

297
00:11:06,270 --> 00:11:08,220
ability to file,

298
00:11:08,220 --> 00:11:09,520
post filing,

299
00:11:09,520 --> 00:11:12,560
supplemental data to prove inventive

300
00:11:12,560 --> 00:11:15,600
step or sufficiency of enablement.

301
00:11:15,600 --> 00:11:18,610
And I believe it's maybe

302
00:11:18,610 --> 00:11:22,600
20 as late as 2013 or so.

303
00:11:22,600 --> 00:11:24,238
China categorically categorically

304
00:11:24,238 --> 00:11:27,514
design reject supplement data if the

305
00:11:27,514 --> 00:11:30,099
data is not in your application.

306
00:11:30,100 --> 00:11:31,339
Sorry auto block.

307
00:11:31,339 --> 00:11:34,230
And that has changed quite a bit,

308
00:11:34,230 --> 00:11:36,156
as seen Jonathan and Elaine will

309
00:11:36,156 --> 00:11:38,451
have time to get into a little

310
00:11:38,451 --> 00:11:40,021
bit more detail with regard

311
00:11:40,021 --> 00:11:42,228
to the supplemental data rule.

312
00:11:42,230 --> 00:11:44,234
I want to also quickly mention

313
00:11:44,234 --> 00:11:46,078
something that is not limited

314
00:11:46,078 --> 00:11:47,826
to the biopharma industry.

315
00:11:47,830 --> 00:11:51,010
That is the so-called abnormal applications

316
00:11:51,010 --> 00:11:54,730
and by CIPa announcement announcement.

317
00:11:54,730 --> 00:11:58,360
I think the total number.

318
00:11:58,360 --> 00:11:59,238
Mentioned.

319
00:11:59,238 --> 00:12:02,750
The number of abnormal

320
00:12:02,750 --> 00:12:05,970
applications is eighty 815,000.

321
00:12:05,970 --> 00:12:09,927
That's quite a bit for year 2021.

322
00:12:09,927 --> 00:12:10,404
Uh,

323
00:12:10,404 --> 00:12:13,266
I think that by my calculation,

324
00:12:13,270 --> 00:12:13,825
uh,

325
00:12:13,825 --> 00:12:14,935
about uh,

326
00:12:14,935 --> 00:12:20,790
that's about 15 to 20% of the total amount of

327
00:12:20,790 --> 00:12:24,086
applications receives and that's quite a bit.

328
00:12:24,090 --> 00:12:25,366
And the word abnormal.

329
00:12:25,366 --> 00:12:27,628
Of course you might ask because it

330
00:12:27,628 --> 00:12:29,350
doesn't exist in the US system.

331
00:12:29,350 --> 00:12:31,150
What do you mean by abnormal?

332
00:12:31,150 --> 00:12:33,482
And there's actually quite

333
00:12:33,482 --> 00:12:34,648
extensive definitions,

334
00:12:34,650 --> 00:12:37,202
but the gist of it is that the

335
00:12:37,202 --> 00:12:39,095
application is not submitted for

336
00:12:39,095 --> 00:12:41,459
the for the purpose of securing.

337
00:12:41,460 --> 00:12:44,136
Protection of invention.

338
00:12:44,136 --> 00:12:47,180
I think you may never see

339
00:12:47,180 --> 00:12:48,440
this in CIP announcement,

340
00:12:48,440 --> 00:12:50,800
but but I think it's fair to say

341
00:12:50,800 --> 00:12:52,359
it's pretty much applications

342
00:12:52,359 --> 00:12:55,053
submitted for the sole purpose of

343
00:12:55,053 --> 00:12:57,488
getting subsidy and in that regard,

344
00:12:57,488 --> 00:12:57,870
the

345
00:13:00,180 --> 00:13:02,600
CIPA actually announced the subsidies.

346
00:13:02,600 --> 00:13:05,438
They will eliminate all subsidies by

347
00:13:05,440 --> 00:13:09,512
2025 and all the provincial and local IP

348
00:13:09,512 --> 00:13:13,279
offices are men are required I believe,

349
00:13:13,280 --> 00:13:16,910
to reduce their subsidy like by 25%.

350
00:13:16,910 --> 00:13:21,410
Every year towards the total elimination

351
00:13:21,410 --> 00:13:26,656
by 2025 and as recent as just last month,

352
00:13:26,660 --> 00:13:29,390
January 27th, I believe Cipa also announced

353
00:13:29,390 --> 00:13:32,090
a measure that included some more details

354
00:13:32,090 --> 00:13:34,865
on how they will punish applicants who

355
00:13:34,865 --> 00:13:37,619
violates the good faith in IP field,

356
00:13:37,620 --> 00:13:40,460
for which abnormal application is a big part.

357
00:13:40,460 --> 00:13:42,445
The bad Faith trademark application

358
00:13:42,445 --> 00:13:45,236
is is another big part of that

359
00:13:45,236 --> 00:13:46,696
violation of good faith.

360
00:13:46,700 --> 00:13:50,330
And I actually see a welcome

361
00:13:50,330 --> 00:13:54,108
welcome step of good step actually.

362
00:13:54,108 --> 00:13:57,330
In that announcement, because the

363
00:13:57,330 --> 00:14:01,200
announcement said uh with regard to.

364
00:14:01,200 --> 00:14:03,092
Either abnormal application or

365
00:14:03,092 --> 00:14:05,930
violation of good facing IP field

366
00:14:05,930 --> 00:14:10,230
which is concealing important facts.

367
00:14:10,230 --> 00:14:12,274
For a long time,

368
00:14:12,274 --> 00:14:14,829
actually the rights holders uh

369
00:14:14,829 --> 00:14:17,699
have been pushing have been.

370
00:14:17,700 --> 00:14:22,163
Telling us that conceding priority is kind of

371
00:14:22,163 --> 00:14:25,590
the ultimate cost of abnormal applications.

372
00:14:25,590 --> 00:14:27,670
Uh, I think concealing

373
00:14:27,670 --> 00:14:30,270
important facts is it's kind.

374
00:14:30,270 --> 00:14:32,190
It's a welcome step forward.

375
00:14:32,190 --> 00:14:33,162
Of course,

376
00:14:33,162 --> 00:14:36,078
it's still not exactly conceding priority.

377
00:14:36,080 --> 00:14:37,628
And with that I think sorry,

378
00:14:37,630 --> 00:14:40,210
I aim to like take 7 or 8 minutes I

379
00:14:40,284 --> 00:14:42,786
think are already overrun my time.

380
00:14:42,790 --> 00:14:45,275
Let me just stop there and welcome

381
00:14:45,275 --> 00:14:47,299
any questions through the email box.

382
00:14:47,300 --> 00:14:51,292
Let me turn the floor to actually

383
00:14:51,292 --> 00:14:54,124
who's going to go after me.

384
00:14:54,130 --> 00:14:55,096
Jonathan, Jonathan.

385
00:14:55,096 --> 00:14:55,579
Alright.

386
00:14:55,579 --> 00:14:56,062
Yeah,

387
00:14:56,062 --> 00:14:57,028
go ahead,

388
00:14:57,030 --> 00:14:57,500
Jonathan.

389
00:15:00,080 --> 00:15:02,530
OK. Thank you, Larry. Yeah.

390
00:15:02,530 --> 00:15:04,498
So this is not my slides.

391
00:15:04,500 --> 00:15:07,108
Uh, since he can you change to my

392
00:15:07,108 --> 00:15:10,053
slides my slides is bio former patent

393
00:15:10,053 --> 00:15:12,608
prosecution litigation not this one.

394
00:15:12,610 --> 00:15:16,970
Thank you. Yeah. Yeah. OK. Thank you.

395
00:15:16,970 --> 00:15:22,310
I mean, it's like sometimes. Point. Uh.

396
00:15:22,310 --> 00:15:26,254
Firstly I want to show you some recent

397
00:15:26,254 --> 00:15:29,408
data about the patent filings in China.

398
00:15:29,410 --> 00:15:30,640
As Larry mentioned,

399
00:15:30,640 --> 00:15:32,676
in recent years, every year,

400
00:15:32,676 --> 00:15:35,497
China has a huge amount of patent

401
00:15:35,497 --> 00:15:37,750
filings in the year of 2020,

402
00:15:37,750 --> 00:15:40,481
China again ranked number one in

403
00:15:40,481 --> 00:15:44,087
the in the major major economies.

404
00:15:44,090 --> 00:15:48,186
And as to the field of bio former,

405
00:15:48,190 --> 00:15:51,473
we can also see that China still

406
00:15:51,473 --> 00:15:54,471
has the largest number of patent

407
00:15:54,471 --> 00:15:57,957
filings and since the year of two.

408
00:15:57,960 --> 00:16:03,308
2013 China is supporting US at accelerated

409
00:16:03,308 --> 00:16:08,658
speed and as of October last year,

410
00:16:08,660 --> 00:16:11,565
China has more than half of the

411
00:16:11,565 --> 00:16:14,670
patterns in the field of bio farmer.

412
00:16:18,910 --> 00:16:21,140
In spite of the increase,

413
00:16:21,140 --> 00:16:24,990
the amount of patent filing every year,

414
00:16:24,990 --> 00:16:29,316
as Larry mentioned that in recent years

415
00:16:29,316 --> 00:16:34,532
seen IPA is taking initiatives to improve

416
00:16:34,532 --> 00:16:38,684
their examination efficiency and also to

417
00:16:38,684 --> 00:16:42,700
improve the quality of China patterns.

418
00:16:42,700 --> 00:16:45,040
Last year, in October last year,

419
00:16:45,040 --> 00:16:47,674
the director of CMLP announced that

420
00:16:47,674 --> 00:16:51,637
they are now able to reduce the every

421
00:16:51,637 --> 00:16:54,287
time needed for invention patent

422
00:16:54,287 --> 00:16:56,477
examination to about 19 months.

423
00:16:56,480 --> 00:16:58,464
Yeah, that's pretty fast.

424
00:16:58,464 --> 00:17:00,100
Uh, and in the meanwhile,

425
00:17:00,100 --> 00:17:02,574
we can see that there is a steady

426
00:17:02,574 --> 00:17:04,656
decrease of the grant rate of

427
00:17:04,656 --> 00:17:05,979
inversion pattern in China,

428
00:17:05,980 --> 00:17:08,735
which I think indicates the

429
00:17:08,735 --> 00:17:11,945
improvement of the patent quality in

430
00:17:11,945 --> 00:17:15,200
China and and and decrease of the so

431
00:17:15,200 --> 00:17:16,936
called garbage patent applications

432
00:17:16,936 --> 00:17:19,539
or abnormal pattern application.

433
00:17:19,540 --> 00:17:22,438
So having said that with the huge

434
00:17:22,438 --> 00:17:25,404
number of patent applications in Bell

435
00:17:25,404 --> 00:17:29,372
former field and with the increase.

436
00:17:29,372 --> 00:17:32,962
Improvement of examination efficiency and

437
00:17:32,962 --> 00:17:36,328
improvement of patent quality in China.

438
00:17:36,330 --> 00:17:39,946
I think China for those who are players

439
00:17:39,946 --> 00:17:42,607
and innovators in bio former field,

440
00:17:42,610 --> 00:17:45,771
China is becoming more and more important

441
00:17:45,771 --> 00:17:49,377
and attractive not only because China

442
00:17:49,377 --> 00:17:53,170
is awarding a so-called aiding society,

443
00:17:53,170 --> 00:17:56,334
but also because China is now becoming

444
00:17:56,334 --> 00:17:59,058
more and more friendly to innovators.

445
00:17:59,060 --> 00:18:00,860
Yeah, especially in the bell,

446
00:18:00,860 --> 00:18:01,730
former field.

447
00:18:04,820 --> 00:18:06,776
Uh, so haven't talked about this?

448
00:18:06,780 --> 00:18:09,200
Uh, this uh this data.

449
00:18:09,200 --> 00:18:12,021
Firstly, I want to keep the audience

450
00:18:12,021 --> 00:18:14,965
a brief introduction to the patent

451
00:18:14,965 --> 00:18:17,173
prosecution and patent litigation

452
00:18:17,173 --> 00:18:18,829
patent infringement litigation

453
00:18:18,905 --> 00:18:21,530
in China with a focus on the

454
00:18:21,530 --> 00:18:24,106
difference between China and the US.

455
00:18:24,106 --> 00:18:26,998
Uh, so as to patent prosecution,

456
00:18:27,000 --> 00:18:30,340
I think there are many.

457
00:18:30,340 --> 00:18:33,310
The difference lies in 3/3 aspects.

458
00:18:33,310 --> 00:18:37,090
The first aspect is in China and the US,

459
00:18:37,090 --> 00:18:39,300
although we both have the

460
00:18:39,300 --> 00:18:40,626
grace period requirements,

461
00:18:40,630 --> 00:18:44,380
but in China we have only six months

462
00:18:44,380 --> 00:18:48,265
grace period and also the grace period

463
00:18:48,265 --> 00:18:51,092
exemptions are strictly limited to

464
00:18:51,092 --> 00:18:54,362
4 scenarios and the first scenario,

465
00:18:54,370 --> 00:18:56,272
the disclosure for the first time

466
00:18:56,272 --> 00:18:58,280
for the purpose of the public.

467
00:18:58,280 --> 00:19:02,708
Interest was introduced with the amendment,

468
00:19:02,710 --> 00:19:06,038
the 4th Amendment to the Chinese patent law.

469
00:19:06,040 --> 00:19:08,659
Uh, and to my knowledge in US you can

470
00:19:08,659 --> 00:19:11,147
have a novelty grace period of up to

471
00:19:11,147 --> 00:19:13,435
one year and almost no restriction

472
00:19:13,435 --> 00:19:15,600
to the manner of disclosure.

473
00:19:15,600 --> 00:19:17,000
So as grace period,

474
00:19:17,000 --> 00:19:20,426
I think in US you have more limited

475
00:19:20,426 --> 00:19:23,230
grace period requirement and secondly.

476
00:19:25,460 --> 00:19:27,878
As to the post filing data

477
00:19:27,880 --> 00:19:30,580
regarding the formality and content

478
00:19:30,580 --> 00:19:33,760
requirements for the post filing data,

479
00:19:33,760 --> 00:19:36,955
I think the US has also a more lenient

480
00:19:36,955 --> 00:19:39,770
and open attitude toward classifying

481
00:19:39,770 --> 00:19:43,322
data compared with practice in China.

482
00:19:43,330 --> 00:19:48,020
After the phase one, China US agreement,

483
00:19:48,020 --> 00:19:51,415
now we have already have some very

484
00:19:51,415 --> 00:19:54,278
extensive isn't and observable improvement

485
00:19:54,278 --> 00:19:59,206
in the attitude toward post filing data.

486
00:19:59,210 --> 00:20:01,050
And the third aspect regarding

487
00:20:01,050 --> 00:20:02,522
the difference between China,

488
00:20:02,530 --> 00:20:07,510
USA is is what can be what can be protected,

489
00:20:07,510 --> 00:20:09,750
what can be claimed regarding

490
00:20:09,750 --> 00:20:11,542
the Biopharm field?

491
00:20:11,550 --> 00:20:15,180
I think we have substances including

492
00:20:15,180 --> 00:20:17,377
antibodies, vaccines and compositions.

493
00:20:17,377 --> 00:20:20,022
All these substances can also

494
00:20:20,022 --> 00:20:22,578
be pattern patented in China.

495
00:20:22,580 --> 00:20:25,700
I think the same in US.

496
00:20:25,700 --> 00:20:28,540
Uh, so in general, uh,

497
00:20:28,540 --> 00:20:32,080
the the method for diagnosis.

498
00:20:32,080 --> 00:20:35,368
Or or master or the treatment of disease

499
00:20:35,368 --> 00:20:39,280
are not patentable in China for human need,

500
00:20:39,280 --> 00:20:41,314
terrorism or considerations.

501
00:20:41,314 --> 00:20:44,026
Uh, for similar reasons.

502
00:20:44,030 --> 00:20:45,956
Drug Administration methods,

503
00:20:45,956 --> 00:20:49,166
including the dosage interval between

504
00:20:49,166 --> 00:20:53,209
dosing and the roads of the administration.

505
00:20:53,210 --> 00:20:56,018
Those are not patentable in China,

506
00:20:56,020 --> 00:20:59,380
but there is something that deserves

507
00:20:59,380 --> 00:21:01,620
a deserves further mention.

508
00:21:01,620 --> 00:21:03,498
That is, for the second use,

509
00:21:03,500 --> 00:21:06,475
the second use of a known drug

510
00:21:06,480 --> 00:21:08,736
for second use of new drug.

511
00:21:08,740 --> 00:21:12,286
If you claim it as a method for four.

512
00:21:12,290 --> 00:21:13,290
Treatment of these years,

513
00:21:13,290 --> 00:21:15,030
of course, that is not possible,

514
00:21:15,030 --> 00:21:17,391
but you can drop it in the

515
00:21:17,391 --> 00:21:19,506
manner of so-called Swiss style.

516
00:21:19,510 --> 00:21:21,868
And with that you can obtain

517
00:21:21,868 --> 00:21:23,980
a patent protection in China.

518
00:21:27,590 --> 00:21:31,146
Before I, uh, we move to the

519
00:21:31,146 --> 00:21:32,670
patent infringement litigation,

520
00:21:32,670 --> 00:21:36,140
I want to talk about the pattern related

521
00:21:36,140 --> 00:21:39,460
cost system in China and in China for

522
00:21:39,543 --> 00:21:41,979
the pattern infringement litigation

523
00:21:41,979 --> 00:21:45,675
and the patent validity litigation we

524
00:21:45,675 --> 00:21:48,900
have the so-called bifurcated systems.

525
00:21:48,900 --> 00:21:50,730
That means the patent infringement

526
00:21:50,730 --> 00:21:52,910
case and the patent validity case.

527
00:21:52,910 --> 00:21:57,290
They go through different court systems.

528
00:21:57,290 --> 00:21:59,322
For patent infringement litigation,

529
00:21:59,322 --> 00:22:03,537
we have the so-called 1 + 4 + N system.

530
00:22:03,540 --> 00:22:05,700
So at the Supreme Court level

531
00:22:05,700 --> 00:22:07,630
or the appellate court level,

532
00:22:07,630 --> 00:22:10,954
we have an IP tribunal inside

533
00:22:10,954 --> 00:22:12,346
the Supreme Court,

534
00:22:12,346 --> 00:22:15,680
which is specialized in hearing IP cases,

535
00:22:15,680 --> 00:22:18,524
especially cases involving technical

536
00:22:18,524 --> 00:22:22,079
issues including the patent disputes.

537
00:22:22,080 --> 00:22:25,592
Then at the trial stage we have we

538
00:22:25,592 --> 00:22:29,616
have 4 specialist IP IP cards which

539
00:22:29,616 --> 00:22:32,320
respectively located in Beijing,

540
00:22:32,320 --> 00:22:32,824
Shanghai,

541
00:22:32,824 --> 00:22:36,352
Guangzhou and Highland and we also have

542
00:22:36,352 --> 00:22:41,282
a 24 IP tribunals in different provinces

543
00:22:41,282 --> 00:22:46,139
and which can which can hear cases

544
00:22:46,140 --> 00:22:48,312
across their traditional jurisdiction.

545
00:22:48,312 --> 00:22:52,249
So with such a such a design

546
00:22:52,249 --> 00:22:54,569
called system for patent.

547
00:22:54,570 --> 00:22:57,394
In the cases we are now having a

548
00:22:57,394 --> 00:22:59,353
kind of concentrated prediction

549
00:22:59,353 --> 00:23:02,845
which can help to uniform the

550
00:23:02,845 --> 00:23:05,425
criteria for for case judgment

551
00:23:05,425 --> 00:23:09,222
and also can to some extent avoid

552
00:23:09,222 --> 00:23:12,300
the so-called local protectionism.

553
00:23:15,280 --> 00:23:18,536
And then as to the patent invalidation cases,

554
00:23:18,540 --> 00:23:23,279
they go through a different a different

555
00:23:23,280 --> 00:23:26,460
approach or different root cause system.

556
00:23:26,460 --> 00:23:28,800
So for patent invalidation cases,

557
00:23:28,800 --> 00:23:31,656
they always start from the scene IPA,

558
00:23:31,660 --> 00:23:35,188
the Chinese Patent Office.

559
00:23:35,190 --> 00:23:37,782
Starting from the CNIPE

560
00:23:37,782 --> 00:23:39,078
validation proceeding,

561
00:23:39,080 --> 00:23:41,244
which is administrative proceeding,

562
00:23:41,244 --> 00:23:45,129
so if one party is not satisfied

563
00:23:45,129 --> 00:23:48,270
with the decision made by CNIPA

564
00:23:48,270 --> 00:23:50,790
regarding the validity of the pattern,

565
00:23:50,790 --> 00:23:54,493
that party can come bring a judicial

566
00:23:54,493 --> 00:23:57,818
review case before Beijing IP cards.

567
00:23:57,820 --> 00:23:59,248
So for this kind of case,

568
00:23:59,250 --> 00:24:01,679
after Beijing EBT card is a is

569
00:24:01,679 --> 00:24:04,150
a trial state is a trial stage.

570
00:24:04,150 --> 00:24:06,598
Although it is the second stage.

571
00:24:06,600 --> 00:24:09,295
And then after the Beijing IP court,

572
00:24:09,300 --> 00:24:11,148
we still have, uh,

573
00:24:11,148 --> 00:24:13,458
the the party still have

574
00:24:13,458 --> 00:24:15,438
opportunity for for a pallet,

575
00:24:15,440 --> 00:24:17,942
for apparent stage which is at

576
00:24:17,942 --> 00:24:21,188
this as the IP tribunal of the

577
00:24:21,188 --> 00:24:24,140
Supreme Court where the party can

578
00:24:24,140 --> 00:24:27,417
get the final the final judgment,

579
00:24:27,420 --> 00:24:29,814
the final judgment and now you can

580
00:24:29,814 --> 00:24:32,339
see for both the patent invalidation

581
00:24:32,339 --> 00:24:34,704
case and the pattern infringement

582
00:24:34,704 --> 00:24:37,190
case at the appellate stage.

583
00:24:37,190 --> 00:24:39,345
They converge to the same

584
00:24:39,345 --> 00:24:41,069
IP tribunal that is,

585
00:24:41,070 --> 00:24:43,737
the IP tribunal in the Supreme Court.

586
00:24:48,220 --> 00:24:50,884
Uh, so this on this slide I showed

587
00:24:50,884 --> 00:24:53,860
some of the major difference between

588
00:24:53,860 --> 00:24:55,652
AS2 patent infringement litigation

589
00:24:55,652 --> 00:24:58,710
between China and the US in USA,

590
00:24:58,710 --> 00:25:01,146
you have the very powerful and

591
00:25:01,146 --> 00:25:02,770
efficient discovery process for

592
00:25:02,839 --> 00:25:04,739
evidence collection in China.

593
00:25:04,740 --> 00:25:06,588
We don't have that in less

594
00:25:06,588 --> 00:25:08,520
you have the jury in China.

595
00:25:08,520 --> 00:25:12,978
We have something that maybe maybe

596
00:25:12,980 --> 00:25:15,010
maybe similar but quite different

597
00:25:15,010 --> 00:25:17,040
which is the peoples juror.

598
00:25:17,040 --> 00:25:19,175
But the people draw these

599
00:25:19,175 --> 00:25:21,310
sit together with the judge.

600
00:25:21,310 --> 00:25:23,977
They form a form of a panel

601
00:25:23,977 --> 00:25:26,484
together with the judge to hear

602
00:25:26,484 --> 00:25:29,028
the case and make the decision.

603
00:25:29,030 --> 00:25:29,876
And also US,

604
00:25:29,876 --> 00:25:31,850
you have the magma hearing in China.

605
00:25:31,850 --> 00:25:33,278
We don't have that.

606
00:25:33,278 --> 00:25:36,630
And also for the for the process in

607
00:25:36,630 --> 00:25:39,030
China generally for infernal dedication

608
00:25:39,030 --> 00:25:41,960
it takes relatively shorter time.

609
00:25:41,960 --> 00:25:46,620
You can get a judgement relatively quicker.

610
00:25:46,620 --> 00:25:49,840
Uh, and also as to the possibility

611
00:25:49,840 --> 00:25:52,471
of getting injunction in China almost

612
00:25:52,471 --> 00:25:54,973
in each and every infant case,

613
00:25:54,980 --> 00:25:57,854
so long as the pattern infringement

614
00:25:57,854 --> 00:25:59,770
is established and approved,

615
00:25:59,770 --> 00:26:02,655
you can almost always get

616
00:26:02,655 --> 00:26:04,386
an injunction order.

617
00:26:04,390 --> 00:26:07,169
Uh, but as to the damage compensation,

618
00:26:07,170 --> 00:26:10,334
as you may have seen from previous

619
00:26:10,334 --> 00:26:12,947
reports that the partner monetary

620
00:26:12,947 --> 00:26:15,095
compensation awarded in China

621
00:26:15,095 --> 00:26:17,780
is relatively low compared that

622
00:26:17,865 --> 00:26:19,935
the penalty get in the USA.

623
00:26:19,940 --> 00:26:22,130
But in recent years we have

624
00:26:22,130 --> 00:26:24,589
seen a steady increase of the

625
00:26:24,589 --> 00:26:26,437
monetary compensation in China.

626
00:26:26,440 --> 00:26:26,722
Uh,

627
00:26:26,722 --> 00:26:28,132
another thing is about the

628
00:26:28,132 --> 00:26:29,760
evidence used in the pattern.

629
00:26:29,760 --> 00:26:32,855
Infant litigation in USI think

630
00:26:32,855 --> 00:26:35,950
the affidavits and depositions are

631
00:26:36,050 --> 00:26:38,906
widely used and witness or also

632
00:26:38,906 --> 00:26:42,530
widely used in the court proceeding.

633
00:26:42,530 --> 00:26:43,342
But internal,

634
00:26:43,342 --> 00:26:46,184
although we also have this kind of

635
00:26:46,184 --> 00:26:49,240
evidence also acceptable in court proceeding,

636
00:26:49,240 --> 00:26:52,082
but generally we tend to think that

637
00:26:52,082 --> 00:26:55,002
this kind of evidence has relatively

638
00:26:55,002 --> 00:26:57,798
lower probative value compared with the.

639
00:26:57,800 --> 00:26:58,840
Documentary evidence.

640
00:26:58,840 --> 00:27:00,920
Or in other words,

641
00:27:00,920 --> 00:27:02,680
in a legal proceeding,

642
00:27:02,680 --> 00:27:04,440
internal documentary evidence always

643
00:27:04,440 --> 00:27:06,989
appears a higher probability value.

644
00:27:11,010 --> 00:27:13,475
So having briefly talked about

645
00:27:13,475 --> 00:27:15,940
the Chinese practice in patent

646
00:27:16,024 --> 00:27:18,448
prosecution patent litigation,

647
00:27:18,450 --> 00:27:22,170
I want to introduce a recent case that

648
00:27:22,170 --> 00:27:25,698
handled by myself and with this case we

649
00:27:25,698 --> 00:27:29,117
can see how how they proceeding works

650
00:27:29,117 --> 00:27:32,455
and how we can share some detailed

651
00:27:32,455 --> 00:27:35,560
take away points with our audience.

652
00:27:35,560 --> 00:27:37,460
In this case, our client,

653
00:27:37,460 --> 00:27:39,060
the right holder, uh.

654
00:27:39,060 --> 00:27:41,460
the IT is not a penalty.

655
00:27:41,460 --> 00:27:44,346
It is a licensee of Chinese

656
00:27:44,346 --> 00:27:47,486
patent which protect a novel,

657
00:27:47,486 --> 00:27:51,224
Cellulitis which is as M4

658
00:27:51,224 --> 00:27:53,840
for Cellulitis treatment.

659
00:27:53,840 --> 00:27:56,768
It can help it can be used for

660
00:27:56,770 --> 00:28:00,178
washing use or for fabric processing.

661
00:28:00,180 --> 00:28:04,632
It can reduce the force on our

662
00:28:04,632 --> 00:28:06,540
clothes especially sweaters.

663
00:28:06,540 --> 00:28:10,159
Uh, so there is one event infringer

664
00:28:10,160 --> 00:28:12,785
who's producing the same product

665
00:28:12,785 --> 00:28:16,300
with exactly the same file sequence,

666
00:28:16,300 --> 00:28:17,992
and the infringer,

667
00:28:17,992 --> 00:28:21,376
or was actively selling the product,

668
00:28:21,380 --> 00:28:22,996
but at a much,

669
00:28:22,996 --> 00:28:26,026
much lower price and the with with

670
00:28:26,026 --> 00:28:28,596
that the infant grabbed almost

671
00:28:28,596 --> 00:28:32,153
all the market share of our our

672
00:28:32,153 --> 00:28:34,967
client read holder or the licensee.

673
00:28:34,970 --> 00:28:37,090
So other other picture,

674
00:28:37,090 --> 00:28:40,698
these are the product we we see

675
00:28:40,698 --> 00:28:44,051
that we we we purchased from this

676
00:28:44,051 --> 00:28:46,642
infringer and you can see the

677
00:28:46,642 --> 00:28:49,743
label on the other bot on the

678
00:28:49,743 --> 00:28:52,208
barrels and these labels are.

679
00:28:52,210 --> 00:28:56,044
All covered up by by notary public in China.

680
00:28:56,050 --> 00:28:56,968
So in China,

681
00:28:56,968 --> 00:28:57,886
as I mentioned,

682
00:28:57,890 --> 00:29:00,615
we have a relatively stricter

683
00:29:00,615 --> 00:29:03,340
requirement on formality of evidence.

684
00:29:03,340 --> 00:29:07,029
So so to purchase the products and

685
00:29:07,029 --> 00:29:09,886
get the purchased product notarized

686
00:29:09,886 --> 00:29:13,408
is always the most important step

687
00:29:13,408 --> 00:29:17,353
in the evidence fixation over

688
00:29:17,353 --> 00:29:19,380
invalidation litigation case.

689
00:29:23,350 --> 00:29:26,190
So uh, always before so

690
00:29:26,190 --> 00:29:28,462
before initiating the lawsuit,

691
00:29:28,470 --> 00:29:30,270
there is a long way.

692
00:29:30,270 --> 00:29:33,358
We spent a long time to prepare the

693
00:29:33,358 --> 00:29:35,935
case from identifying the infringement

694
00:29:35,935 --> 00:29:39,367
and align with the client team.

695
00:29:39,370 --> 00:29:41,656
About the goals of the enforcement

696
00:29:41,656 --> 00:29:44,889
actions and to assess the possibility of

697
00:29:44,889 --> 00:29:47,069
infringement related with passionate,

698
00:29:47,070 --> 00:29:48,948
but the patterns and more importantly,

699
00:29:48,950 --> 00:29:52,910
we spend a long time to collect evidence

700
00:29:52,910 --> 00:29:56,838
to conduct the purchase and to collect

701
00:29:56,838 --> 00:30:00,023
evidence about the production scale,

702
00:30:00,030 --> 00:30:02,522
collect their environment impact

703
00:30:02,522 --> 00:30:06,260
assessment and a lot of evidence.

704
00:30:06,260 --> 00:30:09,676
So once we have all the evidence ready.

705
00:30:09,680 --> 00:30:12,704
We we started talking about the the

706
00:30:12,704 --> 00:30:15,854
infringer to see whether there is a

707
00:30:15,854 --> 00:30:18,500
possibility to settle this case so

708
00:30:18,584 --> 00:30:21,578
that both parties can resolve these.

709
00:30:21,580 --> 00:30:24,184
This dispute in a more efficient way.

710
00:30:24,190 --> 00:30:26,524
So in this case the infringer

711
00:30:26,524 --> 00:30:28,080
they are quite disturbing.

712
00:30:28,080 --> 00:30:30,840
They didn't even acknowledge

713
00:30:30,840 --> 00:30:32,910
their infant activity.

714
00:30:32,910 --> 00:30:35,586
So then we decide to initiate

715
00:30:35,586 --> 00:30:37,809
the lawsuit and so generally

716
00:30:37,809 --> 00:30:40,024
once you initiate the lawsuits.

717
00:30:40,030 --> 00:30:41,686
And the post priorities,

718
00:30:41,686 --> 00:30:44,732
we fail over evidence to show the

719
00:30:44,732 --> 00:30:46,636
infringement and the evidence

720
00:30:46,636 --> 00:30:49,016
to support our damage claim.

721
00:30:49,020 --> 00:30:50,970
The other party will fail Conrad,

722
00:30:50,970 --> 00:30:53,592
and then the court will organize

723
00:30:53,592 --> 00:30:55,612
the evidence exchange and the

724
00:30:55,612 --> 00:30:57,718
Post party will see the evidence

725
00:30:57,718 --> 00:31:00,007
submitted by the early part other

726
00:31:00,007 --> 00:31:02,275
party and to check the authenticity,

727
00:31:02,280 --> 00:31:06,150
credibility and order, order requirements.

728
00:31:06,150 --> 00:31:09,517
Other requirement on the on the evidence.

729
00:31:09,520 --> 00:31:11,956
Another will have the three trail

730
00:31:11,956 --> 00:31:13,580
conference on such conference.

731
00:31:13,580 --> 00:31:17,372
The judge will will review evidence

732
00:31:17,372 --> 00:31:20,840
submitted by both parties and hear

733
00:31:20,840 --> 00:31:23,875
opinions from both parties and

734
00:31:23,875 --> 00:31:28,475
to figure out what is the focus

735
00:31:28,475 --> 00:31:31,355
of dispute between parties.

736
00:31:31,360 --> 00:31:32,881
In our case,

737
00:31:32,881 --> 00:31:35,416
since both parties has sent

738
00:31:35,416 --> 00:31:38,098
efficient apparent dispute on the

739
00:31:38,098 --> 00:31:40,723
infringement assessment and we assert

740
00:31:40,723 --> 00:31:44,007
there is informed the other party,

741
00:31:44,010 --> 00:31:46,308
they said their product is different

742
00:31:46,308 --> 00:31:48,848
from what is claimed in our claims.

743
00:31:48,850 --> 00:31:53,631
So the judge decided to use independent

744
00:31:53,631 --> 00:31:55,680
judicial appraisal institution

745
00:31:55,785 --> 00:31:58,520
and arrange a separate test,

746
00:31:58,520 --> 00:32:01,690
a separate test and the.

747
00:32:01,690 --> 00:32:04,444
The the the the conclusion of

748
00:32:04,444 --> 00:32:07,315
the test showed that their bio

749
00:32:07,315 --> 00:32:10,123
sequence is exactly the same as

750
00:32:10,123 --> 00:32:13,087
clean as claimed in our claim.

751
00:32:13,090 --> 00:32:15,450
Then after that other receiving

752
00:32:15,450 --> 00:32:17,338
the judicial appraisal report

753
00:32:17,340 --> 00:32:20,046
that judged I think

754
00:32:20,046 --> 00:32:21,850
two additional court hearings,

755
00:32:21,850 --> 00:32:24,930
firstly to review the judicial report here,

756
00:32:24,930 --> 00:32:27,840
opinions of both parties on the

757
00:32:27,840 --> 00:32:30,477
judicial report and the informal

758
00:32:30,477 --> 00:32:32,877
assessment and also here.

759
00:32:32,880 --> 00:32:35,720
Review the evidence about

760
00:32:35,720 --> 00:32:37,140
monetary compensation.

761
00:32:37,140 --> 00:32:40,339
Then last year we received the judgment.

762
00:32:40,340 --> 00:32:42,630
Yeah.

763
00:32:42,630 --> 00:32:44,334
So in this judgment,

764
00:32:44,334 --> 00:32:44,760
uh,

765
00:32:44,760 --> 00:32:47,610
they we we received the injunction

766
00:32:47,610 --> 00:32:50,748
order and the judge issued an

767
00:32:50,748 --> 00:32:53,608
injunction against the other products

768
00:32:53,608 --> 00:32:57,132
or the infringing products and also

769
00:32:57,132 --> 00:33:00,564
we our client was awarded monetary

770
00:33:00,564 --> 00:33:03,160
compensation of 10 million RMB.

771
00:33:03,160 --> 00:33:06,190
That was the highest record in

772
00:33:06,302 --> 00:33:09,620
the field of at least the end

773
00:33:09,620 --> 00:33:12,598
them or anything and then yeah.

774
00:33:12,600 --> 00:33:16,225
Uh, uh, and also in this case, uh,

775
00:33:16,225 --> 00:33:19,855
in this amount of monetary compensation,

776
00:33:19,860 --> 00:33:23,940
part of the awarded for as a punitive

777
00:33:23,940 --> 00:33:26,684
compensation file photo punitive

778
00:33:26,684 --> 00:33:29,110
compensation because during the

779
00:33:29,110 --> 00:33:31,110
proceeding of our court hearing,

780
00:33:31,110 --> 00:33:34,960
the 4th amendment of Chinese patent law

781
00:33:34,960 --> 00:33:36,028
came into force.

782
00:33:36,028 --> 00:33:39,580
And so for some part of the compensation

783
00:33:39,580 --> 00:33:42,688
we we we satisfy the conditions.

784
00:33:42,690 --> 00:33:45,538
Full for punitive compensation.

785
00:33:45,538 --> 00:33:48,350
Yeah. And what makes us very happy?

786
00:33:48,350 --> 00:33:50,158
So in this case,

787
00:33:50,158 --> 00:33:53,016
the judge also award award compensation

788
00:33:53,016 --> 00:33:55,990
for attorney fee of 1,000,000 RMB.

789
00:33:55,990 --> 00:33:58,630
That's that's a pretty high amount

790
00:33:58,630 --> 00:34:00,980
compared with the previous cases.

791
00:34:04,090 --> 00:34:06,634
So as a take away points

792
00:34:06,634 --> 00:34:08,910
from from from this case.

793
00:34:08,910 --> 00:34:11,626
So firstly I want to send a

794
00:34:11,626 --> 00:34:14,745
message to our audience now in

795
00:34:14,745 --> 00:34:17,225
China for willful infringement.

796
00:34:17,230 --> 00:34:19,195
We have a punitive compensation

797
00:34:19,195 --> 00:34:21,824
which can be as high as five

798
00:34:21,824 --> 00:34:24,428
times of the damage to the

799
00:34:24,428 --> 00:34:27,428
patentee or to the right holder.

800
00:34:27,430 --> 00:34:29,240
Uh, the second one is,

801
00:34:29,240 --> 00:34:32,159
I think this is something unique in

802
00:34:32,159 --> 00:34:34,468
the patent infringement case in China,

803
00:34:34,470 --> 00:34:36,420
which is a judicial appraisal

804
00:34:36,420 --> 00:34:38,928
when both parties have a dispute

805
00:34:38,928 --> 00:34:40,836
on the infant assessment,

806
00:34:40,840 --> 00:34:44,536
the judge will elect a judicial

807
00:34:44,536 --> 00:34:46,384
independence judicial appraisal

808
00:34:46,384 --> 00:34:49,136
institution to determine to run test,

809
00:34:49,140 --> 00:34:51,068
to determine whether there

810
00:34:51,068 --> 00:34:52,996
is a patent infringement.

811
00:34:53,000 --> 00:34:55,163
The third one is about the shift

812
00:34:55,163 --> 00:34:57,199
of burden of proof in China.

813
00:34:57,200 --> 00:35:01,200
I think we may talk about this later if we

814
00:35:01,303 --> 00:35:05,308
have time in the Q&A session in this case.

815
00:35:05,310 --> 00:35:07,398
Since we have already proved there

816
00:35:07,398 --> 00:35:09,590
is a clear infringement then as

817
00:35:09,590 --> 00:35:11,070
to the monetary compensation,

818
00:35:11,070 --> 00:35:12,520
since we as the parenting,

819
00:35:12,520 --> 00:35:14,886
we don't have evidence to show how

820
00:35:14,886 --> 00:35:17,733
much is the exact profit of the of

821
00:35:17,733 --> 00:35:19,925
the infringer and then we request

822
00:35:19,925 --> 00:35:22,389
for shift part of the burden of

823
00:35:22,389 --> 00:35:24,616
proof to the other party also

824
00:35:24,616 --> 00:35:26,511
them to produce their financial

825
00:35:26,511 --> 00:35:28,617
book and their sales contract,

826
00:35:28,620 --> 00:35:32,476
the judge gives so and and also made

827
00:35:32,476 --> 00:35:35,910
the judgment on monitor compensation.

828
00:35:35,910 --> 00:35:38,470
According to the evidence collected.

829
00:35:38,470 --> 00:35:40,750
The first point is about the

830
00:35:40,750 --> 00:35:43,390
licensees right to sue the infringer.

831
00:35:43,390 --> 00:35:45,066
In this case, however,

832
00:35:45,066 --> 00:35:48,192
our client is a common or normal

833
00:35:48,192 --> 00:35:51,853
ordinary licensee is not a sole licensee.

834
00:35:51,860 --> 00:35:55,370
So for for ordinary licensee,

835
00:35:55,370 --> 00:35:57,876
in order to have the right to

836
00:35:57,876 --> 00:35:58,950
sue the infringer,

837
00:35:58,950 --> 00:36:01,446
I need to firstly have authorization

838
00:36:01,446 --> 00:36:03,890
from the from the patentee.

839
00:36:03,890 --> 00:36:04,836
Besides that,

840
00:36:04,836 --> 00:36:08,147
the licensee also need to have a

841
00:36:08,147 --> 00:36:10,180
declaration from the patentee.

842
00:36:10,180 --> 00:36:13,060
Declaring that the pattern KEY abandoned

843
00:36:13,060 --> 00:36:16,579
its own right to sue the infringer.

844
00:36:16,580 --> 00:36:19,235
So that's all I want to share with you.

845
00:36:19,240 --> 00:36:20,074
Thank you everybody.

846
00:36:20,074 --> 00:36:20,630
Thank you.

847
00:36:27,060 --> 00:36:28,635
Thank you. Jonathan will go ahead and

848
00:36:28,635 --> 00:36:30,763
to our next speaker who will be talking

849
00:36:30,763 --> 00:36:32,828
about patent linkage. Jill, thank you.

850
00:36:36,330 --> 00:36:38,582
Thanks for letting us.

851
00:36:38,582 --> 00:36:40,834
Larry alluded to earlier,

852
00:36:40,840 --> 00:36:43,200
one of the most significant

853
00:36:43,200 --> 00:36:45,088
developments in China regarding

854
00:36:45,088 --> 00:36:47,329
patents would be patent linkage.

855
00:36:47,330 --> 00:36:48,926
And before we dive into that,

856
00:36:48,930 --> 00:36:50,478
it may be worthwhile

857
00:36:50,478 --> 00:36:52,026
explaining what is linkage.

858
00:36:52,030 --> 00:36:54,320
Linkage means that the regulatory

859
00:36:54,320 --> 00:36:57,564
approval of a generic drug is linked

860
00:36:57,564 --> 00:37:00,174
to the resolution of patent disputes

861
00:37:00,174 --> 00:37:02,808
between an innovator and generic.

862
00:37:02,810 --> 00:37:04,718
You may have already sought out.

863
00:37:04,720 --> 00:37:06,855
This is very much likely you are

864
00:37:06,855 --> 00:37:08,709
system the Hatch Waxman system.

865
00:37:08,710 --> 00:37:10,978
They are right or China borrowed

866
00:37:10,978 --> 00:37:14,035
that from the US and to make it work

867
00:37:14,035 --> 00:37:16,794
first we need to have the partner

868
00:37:16,794 --> 00:37:19,058
listings submitted by innovators.

869
00:37:19,060 --> 00:37:22,602
There will also need to be generic

870
00:37:22,602 --> 00:37:25,800
certifications filed by generic when they

871
00:37:25,800 --> 00:37:28,490
submitted their gerneric drug applications.

872
00:37:28,490 --> 00:37:29,276
Most importantly,

873
00:37:29,276 --> 00:37:32,027
there needs to be a mechanism for

874
00:37:32,027 --> 00:37:34,497
the parties to resolve disputes.

875
00:37:34,500 --> 00:37:36,960
With the regulatory approval for the

876
00:37:36,960 --> 00:37:39,810
general being stayed for a certain period.

877
00:37:39,810 --> 00:37:42,618
So in principle.

878
00:37:42,620 --> 00:37:46,316
We have this all in place.

879
00:37:46,320 --> 00:37:47,635
But it's not the system

880
00:37:47,635 --> 00:37:49,550
and it is up and running.

881
00:37:49,550 --> 00:37:51,188
But to reach to this point,

882
00:37:51,190 --> 00:37:53,350
it took quite some years and

883
00:37:53,350 --> 00:37:55,618
you may have heard that US made

884
00:37:55,618 --> 00:37:58,306
theirs in the phase one deal and

885
00:37:58,306 --> 00:38:01,211
China committed to establish this

886
00:38:01,211 --> 00:38:04,256
resolution system for patent disputes

887
00:38:04,256 --> 00:38:06,960
between innovators and generics.

888
00:38:06,960 --> 00:38:08,190
But within China,

889
00:38:08,190 --> 00:38:11,060
this took several years in the making

890
00:38:11,136 --> 00:38:14,040
and understanding that will help you

891
00:38:14,040 --> 00:38:16,729
better understand the system in China.

892
00:38:16,730 --> 00:38:20,515
So importantly part linkage system

893
00:38:20,515 --> 00:38:23,543
touches onto policy imperatives,

894
00:38:23,550 --> 00:38:25,454
which underscores the ongoing

895
00:38:25,454 --> 00:38:27,834
health care reform in China.

896
00:38:27,840 --> 00:38:29,034
On one hand,

897
00:38:29,034 --> 00:38:31,024
the government really wanted to

898
00:38:31,024 --> 00:38:33,928
speed up access to innovative drugs.

899
00:38:33,930 --> 00:38:37,122
And at the same time, and even more,

900
00:38:37,122 --> 00:38:40,593
or grant grant drive here will be to

901
00:38:40,593 --> 00:38:44,328
push down the sky high drug prices in China.

902
00:38:44,330 --> 00:38:47,250
And that means the generic entry in China.

903
00:38:47,250 --> 00:38:49,394
So patent linkage system

904
00:38:49,394 --> 00:38:51,538
touches on both prongs.

905
00:38:51,540 --> 00:38:53,976
The 4th amendment of the patent

906
00:38:53,976 --> 00:38:56,644
law brought to life the present

907
00:38:56,644 --> 00:38:58,556
linkage system in China.

908
00:38:58,560 --> 00:39:00,615
A default false management or

909
00:39:00,615 --> 00:39:03,552
patent law was enacted large here.

910
00:39:03,552 --> 00:39:06,720
So Fast forward to today where

911
00:39:06,818 --> 00:39:08,480
things stand now.

912
00:39:08,480 --> 00:39:09,536
First of all,

913
00:39:09,536 --> 00:39:12,000
a new course of action for patent

914
00:39:12,080 --> 00:39:14,330
linkage has been created and

915
00:39:14,330 --> 00:39:17,816
Article 76 or the PRC patent law.

916
00:39:17,820 --> 00:39:20,610
And discipline court in China.

917
00:39:20,610 --> 00:39:23,194
Has issued judicial interpretation

918
00:39:23,194 --> 00:39:27,070
concerning the litigation for patent linkage.

919
00:39:27,070 --> 00:39:29,998
And both the patents and drug

920
00:39:29,998 --> 00:39:32,886
authorities in China Sea and IPA

921
00:39:32,886 --> 00:39:35,394
and AMP have also weighed in,

922
00:39:35,400 --> 00:39:37,312
issuing their implementing rules

923
00:39:37,312 --> 00:39:40,180
regarding the working of the system.

924
00:39:40,180 --> 00:39:42,390
So for example you have.

925
00:39:42,390 --> 00:39:43,656
Paragraphs for certifications

926
00:39:43,656 --> 00:39:46,188
in the US and in China.

927
00:39:46,190 --> 00:39:49,854
We call it type for certification and this

928
00:39:49,854 --> 00:39:54,210
means that a generic states that it's.

929
00:39:54,210 --> 00:39:56,670
Specific specific solutions does not

930
00:39:56,670 --> 00:39:59,940
fall within the scope or patterns.

931
00:39:59,940 --> 00:40:03,545
Or the innovator's patent is

932
00:40:03,545 --> 00:40:04,987
otherwise invalid.

933
00:40:04,990 --> 00:40:07,223
And the system has been up and

934
00:40:07,223 --> 00:40:08,920
running for quite some time.

935
00:40:08,920 --> 00:40:10,600
For more than six months.

936
00:40:10,600 --> 00:40:13,330
And if you go onto NPS website

937
00:40:13,330 --> 00:40:15,198
over 1000 conduct certifications

938
00:40:15,198 --> 00:40:18,248
are being filed and published.

939
00:40:20,650 --> 00:40:22,682
So next, now look,

940
00:40:22,682 --> 00:40:25,137
let's look at Article 76,

941
00:40:25,137 --> 00:40:27,639
because that is the heart and

942
00:40:27,639 --> 00:40:30,938
center of the patent linkage system.

943
00:40:30,940 --> 00:40:34,396
In China, the concept of artificial

944
00:40:34,396 --> 00:40:37,540
infant infringement is not adopted.

945
00:40:37,540 --> 00:40:41,082
Instead, a new course of action has

946
00:40:41,082 --> 00:40:43,964
been created, and that is called

947
00:40:43,964 --> 00:40:45,828
the scope confirmation action.

948
00:40:45,830 --> 00:40:49,136
This is essentially to determine whether

949
00:40:49,136 --> 00:40:52,167
a generic technical solution falls within

950
00:40:52,167 --> 00:40:54,676
the scope of an innovator's patent.

951
00:40:54,676 --> 00:40:57,345
And under the law, interestingly,

952
00:40:57,345 --> 00:41:01,790
both an innovator and generic may request

953
00:41:01,790 --> 00:41:04,054
that their category determination.

954
00:41:04,054 --> 00:41:06,318
And who has tradiction?

955
00:41:06,320 --> 00:41:09,130
This is even making things

956
00:41:09,130 --> 00:41:11,378
more interesting and trickier.

957
00:41:11,380 --> 00:41:14,404
Both the Beijing IP court as the

958
00:41:14,404 --> 00:41:17,808
judiciary and see an IPA as the

959
00:41:17,808 --> 00:41:20,336
administrative agency now are

960
00:41:20,336 --> 00:41:22,610
having concurrent jurisdiction

961
00:41:22,610 --> 00:41:26,070
to hear Article 76 cases.

962
00:41:26,070 --> 00:41:29,269
This really adds to the complications which

963
00:41:29,269 --> 00:41:33,438
I hope our time to explain a bit more here.

964
00:41:33,440 --> 00:41:36,210
And according to Article 76,

965
00:41:36,210 --> 00:41:40,602
the filing of patent linked placed by the

966
00:41:40,602 --> 00:41:44,359
innovator will stay the generic approval.

967
00:41:44,360 --> 00:41:46,946
As that state period has been

968
00:41:46,946 --> 00:41:50,380
stipulated to be a nine month period.

969
00:41:50,380 --> 00:41:50,842
So.

970
00:41:50,842 --> 00:41:53,614
What are the highlights of the

971
00:41:53,614 --> 00:41:55,000
patent linkage system?

972
00:41:55,000 --> 00:41:57,035
As you were imagine there

973
00:41:57,035 --> 00:41:58,256
will be obligations,

974
00:41:58,260 --> 00:41:59,940
affirmative obligations and it

975
00:41:59,940 --> 00:42:02,460
to be undertaken by both the

976
00:42:02,533 --> 00:42:04,325
innovators and generic companies

977
00:42:04,325 --> 00:42:07,678
for them to avail the benefits and

978
00:42:07,678 --> 00:42:10,968
incentives under the new system.

979
00:42:10,970 --> 00:42:13,122
But very importantly, yeah.

980
00:42:13,122 --> 00:42:16,350
Although the state period is short,

981
00:42:16,350 --> 00:42:18,654
that's only a nine month period

982
00:42:18,654 --> 00:42:21,500
compared to the US 30 month period.

983
00:42:21,500 --> 00:42:24,296
And innovator must pull the trigger.

984
00:42:24,300 --> 00:42:24,824
Otherwise,

985
00:42:24,824 --> 00:42:27,968
always the nine month regulatory stay

986
00:42:27,968 --> 00:42:31,638
in order to slow the generic entry.

987
00:42:31,640 --> 00:42:34,298
The most challenging thing I think

988
00:42:34,298 --> 00:42:36,471
innovative companies now face in

989
00:42:36,471 --> 00:42:38,804
China is to determine where with

990
00:42:38,804 --> 00:42:41,816
which forum they wanted to file.

991
00:42:41,820 --> 00:42:44,874
Their case should be filed with

992
00:42:44,874 --> 00:42:46,910
the IPA demonstrated agency,

993
00:42:46,910 --> 00:42:49,280
or with Beijing IP court.

994
00:42:49,280 --> 00:42:53,960
Or is there a solution in terms of

995
00:42:53,960 --> 00:42:57,077
preserving flexibility by filing 2 cases?

996
00:42:57,080 --> 00:42:58,596
And the fundamental issue,

997
00:42:58,596 --> 00:43:00,870
I think also ties to what

998
00:43:00,948 --> 00:43:03,428
Jonathan explained to you earlier,

999
00:43:03,430 --> 00:43:04,915
because in China,

1000
00:43:04,915 --> 00:43:06,895
patent litigation is bifurcate,

1001
00:43:06,900 --> 00:43:10,530
ihd validity is dealt with separately.

1002
00:43:10,530 --> 00:43:13,026
So validity is very important here

1003
00:43:13,026 --> 00:43:16,439
and now a big controversy and ongoing

1004
00:43:16,439 --> 00:43:19,763
debate is whether a decision handed

1005
00:43:19,763 --> 00:43:23,140
down by CN IPA that can still be

1006
00:43:23,140 --> 00:43:26,730
appealed can terminate the regulatory state.

1007
00:43:26,730 --> 00:43:28,182
In other words.

1008
00:43:28,182 --> 00:43:31,086
Where patent validity is not finally

1009
00:43:31,086 --> 00:43:33,328
settled through further appeals

1010
00:43:33,328 --> 00:43:36,113
cannot drag authority and derogatory

1011
00:43:36,113 --> 00:43:39,410
stay and go ahead and approve drug.

1012
00:43:39,410 --> 00:43:42,180
Now an emerging consensus has

1013
00:43:42,180 --> 00:43:45,760
been that the answer will be yes.

1014
00:43:45,760 --> 00:43:47,090
But at the same time,

1015
00:43:47,090 --> 00:43:48,167
for the generics,

1016
00:43:48,167 --> 00:43:50,680
they are being given the first to

1017
00:43:50,755 --> 00:43:53,077
market exclusivity and that has been

1018
00:43:53,077 --> 00:43:55,830
stipulated to be a 12 month period.

1019
00:43:55,830 --> 00:43:58,478
So that's quite significant

1020
00:43:58,478 --> 00:44:01,126
incentives given to generics.

1021
00:44:01,130 --> 00:44:02,910
Before end of a test,

1022
00:44:02,910 --> 00:44:05,508
there is the so-called patent damages

1023
00:44:05,508 --> 00:44:08,044
claim based on bad faith assertion

1024
00:44:08,044 --> 00:44:10,948
and that is a claim that can be

1025
00:44:11,030 --> 00:44:13,350
exploited by a generic company

1026
00:44:13,350 --> 00:44:16,232
and could be potentially used as

1027
00:44:16,232 --> 00:44:18,480
further leverage buy generic.

1028
00:44:18,480 --> 00:44:21,210
So now we can draw the conclusion.

1029
00:44:21,210 --> 00:44:24,030
There are structurally and fundamental

1030
00:44:24,030 --> 00:44:26,850
difference between the US system

1031
00:44:26,938 --> 00:44:28,288
and China system.

1032
00:44:28,290 --> 00:44:30,555
That's certainly true that China

1033
00:44:30,555 --> 00:44:32,820
to some extent has modeled

1034
00:44:32,906 --> 00:44:35,056
off the Hatch Waxman system,

1035
00:44:35,060 --> 00:44:37,993
but there are certain features from the

1036
00:44:37,993 --> 00:44:40,918
Korean at Canadian patent linkage system,

1037
00:44:40,920 --> 00:44:42,776
garbing borrowed and incorporated

1038
00:44:42,776 --> 00:44:45,560
in the system we're having now.

1039
00:44:45,560 --> 00:44:46,708
At the broadest level,

1040
00:44:46,708 --> 00:44:49,370
I would say that in the United States,

1041
00:44:49,370 --> 00:44:53,074
there 30 years of Hutch Waxman litigation and

1042
00:44:53,074 --> 00:44:56,837
they are detailed and very nuanced rules.

1043
00:44:56,840 --> 00:44:59,542
But in China, the rules are intentionally

1044
00:44:59,542 --> 00:45:02,963
to be loved at a very high level and

1045
00:45:02,963 --> 00:45:05,520
there are ambiguities and uncertainties.

1046
00:45:05,520 --> 00:45:07,525
So indeed, the patent linkage

1047
00:45:07,525 --> 00:45:10,220
rules issued by the sea and IPA,

1048
00:45:10,220 --> 00:45:13,272
an MPA have been said to be

1049
00:45:13,272 --> 00:45:16,149
rules for a trial period.

1050
00:45:16,150 --> 00:45:18,538
So the authorities in China are

1051
00:45:18,538 --> 00:45:20,629
taking the approach of crossing

1052
00:45:20,629 --> 00:45:23,155
the river by feeling the stone.

1053
00:45:23,160 --> 00:45:25,180
This maybe and Chinese

1054
00:45:25,180 --> 00:45:27,200
idiom you've heard before.

1055
00:45:27,200 --> 00:45:31,748
So for sure that challenges ahead.

1056
00:45:31,750 --> 00:45:33,694
Trust and foremost.

1057
00:45:33,694 --> 00:45:36,934
Given the uncertainties and ambiguities,

1058
00:45:36,940 --> 00:45:41,308
it's almost very difficult to forecast and

1059
00:45:41,308 --> 00:45:46,356
also to plan for generic entry in China.

1060
00:45:46,360 --> 00:45:48,284
So this is very,

1061
00:45:48,284 --> 00:45:49,727
very little predictability.

1062
00:45:49,730 --> 00:45:51,450
And then I must say,

1063
00:45:51,450 --> 00:45:51,950
period,

1064
00:45:51,950 --> 00:45:55,950
would that be even sufficient for either the

1065
00:45:55,950 --> 00:46:00,270
IP or speeding IP court to issue a decision?

1066
00:46:00,270 --> 00:46:03,300
And how about the interplay between

1067
00:46:03,300 --> 00:46:04,815
patent invalidation proceedings

1068
00:46:04,815 --> 00:46:07,528
and scope confirmation proceeding?

1069
00:46:07,530 --> 00:46:11,338
Which is the big debate I mentioned earlier?

1070
00:46:11,340 --> 00:46:12,888
Notwithstanding the challenges,

1071
00:46:12,888 --> 00:46:15,984
I think will be worthwhile for

1072
00:46:15,984 --> 00:46:17,695
innovative companies from the

1073
00:46:17,695 --> 00:46:20,313
space and other parts world to now

1074
00:46:20,391 --> 00:46:22,791
better understand the generic entry

1075
00:46:22,791 --> 00:46:25,191
patterns we've seen and observed

1076
00:46:25,200 --> 00:46:26,710
on the ground in China,

1077
00:46:26,710 --> 00:46:29,362
because that probably will help you

1078
00:46:29,362 --> 00:46:31,880
better grasp the system in China,

1079
00:46:31,880 --> 00:46:33,910
there are actually two types

1080
00:46:33,910 --> 00:46:35,128
of generic entries.

1081
00:46:35,130 --> 00:46:38,474
Why is a type of conventional entry which

1082
00:46:38,474 --> 00:46:41,368
you're probably very familiar with that is?

1083
00:46:41,370 --> 00:46:45,074
Generic will only speak to enter into the

1084
00:46:45,074 --> 00:46:48,616
market around the time of patent expiration,

1085
00:46:48,620 --> 00:46:50,285
less the most cost effective

1086
00:46:50,285 --> 00:46:51,284
strategy for them,

1087
00:46:51,290 --> 00:46:51,686
right?

1088
00:46:51,686 --> 00:46:53,270
But now in China,

1089
00:46:53,270 --> 00:46:55,594
because of the cost of a party

1090
00:46:55,594 --> 00:46:57,508
in validation is not as high.

1091
00:46:57,510 --> 00:47:00,271
In recent years we've seen early

1092
00:47:00,271 --> 00:47:02,926
and aggressive entry by generics.

1093
00:47:02,930 --> 00:47:06,444
This means that a generic company may

1094
00:47:06,444 --> 00:47:09,421
seek to invalidate and innovators

1095
00:47:09,421 --> 00:47:12,876
patent including their compound patent.

1096
00:47:12,880 --> 00:47:16,780
Two off the years after innovators

1097
00:47:16,780 --> 00:47:18,730
received marketing authorization.

1098
00:47:18,730 --> 00:47:21,858
Any extreme case we had here in point

1099
00:47:21,858 --> 00:47:25,136
is for Novartis and trust or drug.

1100
00:47:25,140 --> 00:47:27,924
You probably wouldn't believe yet the

1101
00:47:27,924 --> 00:47:30,457
patent was subject to invalidation

1102
00:47:30,457 --> 00:47:33,997
challenge even before the grant or

1103
00:47:33,997 --> 00:47:36,720
the marketing authorization by the MPA.

1104
00:47:36,720 --> 00:47:37,612
Salt 2.

1105
00:47:37,612 --> 00:47:39,842
Better prepare for patent linkage

1106
00:47:39,842 --> 00:47:42,617
litigation in China will be critically

1107
00:47:42,617 --> 00:47:45,335
important for you to gorge the

1108
00:47:45,335 --> 00:47:47,536
intelligence from the Chinese market

1109
00:47:47,536 --> 00:47:50,561
and also to assess the likelihood of

1110
00:47:50,561 --> 00:47:53,166
early and aggressive generic entry.

1111
00:47:53,170 --> 00:47:56,082
For that you of course we need to

1112
00:47:56,082 --> 00:47:58,154
closely monitor generic filings

1113
00:47:58,154 --> 00:48:00,578
and certifications and you will

1114
00:48:00,578 --> 00:48:02,894
also need to prepare actions early,

1115
00:48:02,900 --> 00:48:05,852
get your PLA and notarized and

1116
00:48:05,852 --> 00:48:07,328
legalized documents ready.

1117
00:48:07,330 --> 00:48:10,179
Because in China we have very stringent.

1118
00:48:10,180 --> 00:48:13,930
Formality requirements to follow and action.

1119
00:48:13,930 --> 00:48:15,270
But at the same time,

1120
00:48:15,270 --> 00:48:18,198
you will need to fully assess your case.

1121
00:48:18,200 --> 00:48:21,290
Be cognizant of the potential damages,

1122
00:48:21,290 --> 00:48:25,598
claim against innovators by face assertion.

1123
00:48:25,600 --> 00:48:29,065
Once you are facing a patent challenge

1124
00:48:29,065 --> 00:48:32,278
by a generic company were all you

1125
00:48:32,278 --> 00:48:34,988
need to do is to fight ruthlessly to

1126
00:48:34,988 --> 00:48:37,108
different validity of your patent.

1127
00:48:37,110 --> 00:48:40,310
But I think at board level we need to be

1128
00:48:40,390 --> 00:48:42,818
done, I think for the broader pattern,

1129
00:48:42,820 --> 00:48:46,036
community is to lobby for clarity,

1130
00:48:46,040 --> 00:48:48,540
consistency and predictability of

1131
00:48:48,540 --> 00:48:51,665
this new patent linkage system

1132
00:48:51,670 --> 00:48:54,470
because CNIP officials have also

1133
00:48:54,470 --> 00:48:56,710
recognized in informal meeting,

1134
00:48:56,710 --> 00:48:58,558
this has been perceived

1135
00:48:58,558 --> 00:49:00,406
as a working progress.

1136
00:49:00,410 --> 00:49:02,900
So we'll be continuing to monitor

1137
00:49:02,900 --> 00:49:05,950
developments in China and things will be

1138
00:49:05,950 --> 00:49:08,578
getting passed more and more interesting.

1139
00:49:08,580 --> 00:49:11,452
I'm conscious of the time so our just

1140
00:49:11,452 --> 00:49:14,642
stop here and to discuss a few further

1141
00:49:14,642 --> 00:49:17,229
slides hopefully in our Q&A session.

1142
00:49:17,230 --> 00:49:18,000
Thanks, Elaine.

1143
00:49:21,640 --> 00:49:22,870
Thank you very much, Jill.

1144
00:49:22,870 --> 00:49:24,376
And we will have our last

1145
00:49:24,376 --> 00:49:25,770
speaker last but not least,

1146
00:49:25,770 --> 00:49:27,118
linson often. Thank you.

1147
00:49:32,020 --> 00:49:33,800
Oh, hi. Thank you, Elaine,

1148
00:49:33,800 --> 00:49:36,170
for the invitation to talk and

1149
00:49:36,170 --> 00:49:38,440
different from previous two speakers,

1150
00:49:38,440 --> 00:49:42,024
Joe and Jonathan, I'm a US patent lawyer,

1151
00:49:42,030 --> 00:49:43,182
licensed patent lawyer.

1152
00:49:43,182 --> 00:49:46,840
So I'm going to talk more on the US

1153
00:49:46,840 --> 00:49:49,530
perspectives on the licensing side, so.

1154
00:49:52,080 --> 00:49:53,348
As as everyone though,

1155
00:49:53,348 --> 00:49:55,250
you have all these pattern right,

1156
00:49:55,250 --> 00:49:57,176
what's the path forward and path

1157
00:49:57,176 --> 00:49:58,912
and you need to commercialize

1158
00:49:58,912 --> 00:50:01,186
or to make the monitor eyes

1159
00:50:01,186 --> 00:50:03,141
with this whatever you invent.

1160
00:50:03,141 --> 00:50:05,920
So when I was practicing for many

1161
00:50:05,997 --> 00:50:08,314
years as a patent lawyer and later

1162
00:50:08,314 --> 00:50:11,320
on my team and us we our firm we

1163
00:50:11,320 --> 00:50:13,895
started getting into a lot of license

1164
00:50:13,895 --> 00:50:16,020
agreement review and drafting we

1165
00:50:16,020 --> 00:50:18,882
found out it's actually these two

1166
00:50:18,882 --> 00:50:21,302
are very important linked linked

1167
00:50:21,302 --> 00:50:23,509
together when you do a pattern.

1168
00:50:23,510 --> 00:50:25,344
You know you need to know what's

1169
00:50:25,344 --> 00:50:27,459
the value there and and through the

1170
00:50:27,459 --> 00:50:29,044
licensing we understand you know

1171
00:50:29,044 --> 00:50:30,922
where different pattern has different

1172
00:50:30,922 --> 00:50:32,802
value and it's very important.

1173
00:50:32,810 --> 00:50:35,314
So as we we know you get exclusive

1174
00:50:35,314 --> 00:50:38,113
rights in in the in the license what

1175
00:50:38,113 --> 00:50:40,781
does license mean here we we we can

1176
00:50:40,781 --> 00:50:42,996
say you know you you licensed you

1177
00:50:42,996 --> 00:50:45,908
give other people the right to use

1178
00:50:45,910 --> 00:50:48,718
your patent exclusive rights or not

1179
00:50:48,718 --> 00:50:51,450
exclusive rights so this is just a.

1180
00:50:51,450 --> 00:50:54,696
brief introduction of whether a license.

1181
00:50:54,700 --> 00:50:55,738
Is just a contract.

1182
00:50:57,990 --> 00:50:59,652
And usually in the license agreement

1183
00:50:59,652 --> 00:51:01,789
in the IP license agreement you have,

1184
00:51:01,790 --> 00:51:03,282
you know the clause,

1185
00:51:03,282 --> 00:51:05,995
where would you grant you grant exclusive

1186
00:51:05,995 --> 00:51:08,816
now exclusive where you use in the.

1187
00:51:08,820 --> 00:51:12,742
So when I doing that when I when we work

1188
00:51:12,742 --> 00:51:15,730
on the cross borders with China and the US,

1189
00:51:15,730 --> 00:51:19,426
we realize I mean the comparison is.

1190
00:51:19,430 --> 00:51:22,070
A lot of Chinese companies doing

1191
00:51:22,070 --> 00:51:24,130
the exclusive license from US,

1192
00:51:24,130 --> 00:51:27,786
they want the drug compound type of license,

1193
00:51:27,790 --> 00:51:29,402
then the fuel restrictions.

1194
00:51:29,402 --> 00:51:32,594
So we we've seen all different kind of

1195
00:51:32,594 --> 00:51:36,308
field people try to get some all fields

1196
00:51:36,308 --> 00:51:39,390
or majority also gather cancer related

1197
00:51:39,390 --> 00:51:43,960
field in from China to from US to China.

1198
00:51:43,960 --> 00:51:46,016
The ratio of the grant of courses you

1199
00:51:46,016 --> 00:51:48,169
patent term is very important in this one,

1200
00:51:48,170 --> 00:51:51,098
so previous speaker also has at a different

1201
00:51:51,098 --> 00:51:53,427
degree talk about the patent terms.

1202
00:51:53,430 --> 00:51:55,056
When you have the duration of

1203
00:51:55,056 --> 00:51:56,670
the grant of your license.

1204
00:51:56,670 --> 00:51:59,650
And another thing is geographic

1205
00:51:59,650 --> 00:52:03,174
restriction was a territory you have

1206
00:52:03,174 --> 00:52:06,317
and of course many of my clients.

1207
00:52:06,320 --> 00:52:08,702
To try to license from US,

1208
00:52:08,702 --> 00:52:10,466
they want the China or Greater China,

1209
00:52:10,470 --> 00:52:12,126
right versus US,

1210
00:52:12,126 --> 00:52:15,990
our US client who licensed from China,

1211
00:52:15,990 --> 00:52:18,055
they would get mostly right

1212
00:52:18,055 --> 00:52:19,707
except for Greater China.

1213
00:52:19,710 --> 00:52:20,614
So it's,

1214
00:52:20,614 --> 00:52:22,874
I've seen this kind of

1215
00:52:22,874 --> 00:52:25,370
trend these days these days.

1216
00:52:25,370 --> 00:52:28,304
And the again the the other one is a

1217
00:52:28,304 --> 00:52:30,661
financial really important you know

1218
00:52:30,661 --> 00:52:33,106
these the financial terms usually

1219
00:52:33,106 --> 00:52:35,730
discussed very early in the term sheet.

1220
00:52:35,730 --> 00:52:37,795
You know you talk about how much

1221
00:52:37,795 --> 00:52:39,849
money 'cause they try to save time

1222
00:52:39,849 --> 00:52:41,511
if you couldn't agree with the

1223
00:52:41,575 --> 00:52:43,627
financial terms then you know it's

1224
00:52:43,627 --> 00:52:45,960
not worthwhile to spend a lot of

1225
00:52:45,960 --> 00:52:47,880
money to do the agreement 'cause.

1226
00:52:47,880 --> 00:52:49,464
It's a long agreement,

1227
00:52:49,464 --> 00:52:53,250
it takes a lot of time and we've seen.

1228
00:52:53,250 --> 00:52:55,194
The trend on the on the fee is

1229
00:52:55,194 --> 00:52:56,840
like if you go to the UN,

1230
00:52:56,840 --> 00:52:58,796
a lot of Chinese clients are

1231
00:52:58,796 --> 00:53:00,819
these days trying to license their

1232
00:53:00,819 --> 00:53:03,101
trying to get a license from the

1233
00:53:03,101 --> 00:53:05,062
US universities and those upfront

1234
00:53:05,062 --> 00:53:07,414
fee as kind of relative low.

1235
00:53:07,420 --> 00:53:09,808
So they go,

1236
00:53:09,808 --> 00:53:12,196
they take this.

1237
00:53:12,200 --> 00:53:14,872
Asset and they want to use apply for

1238
00:53:14,872 --> 00:53:18,136
grant or apply for funds from the investor.

1239
00:53:18,140 --> 00:53:23,604
So that's a trend we've seen quite often.

1240
00:53:23,610 --> 00:53:26,868
When they try to license in the US company,

1241
00:53:26,870 --> 00:53:29,406
they rather to pay and try to find

1242
00:53:29,406 --> 00:53:31,814
the asset more like in the later

1243
00:53:31,814 --> 00:53:33,935
stage and then this case they

1244
00:53:33,935 --> 00:53:36,035
pay a lot higher upfront fee.

1245
00:53:38,080 --> 00:53:40,426
And we did during the negotiation,

1246
00:53:40,430 --> 00:53:43,146
a lot of time that people talk

1247
00:53:43,146 --> 00:53:44,926
about sublicensing in China.

1248
00:53:44,926 --> 00:53:48,910
You in US when you license you say,

1249
00:53:48,910 --> 00:53:49,820
hey, sublicense,

1250
00:53:49,820 --> 00:53:52,550
that's pretty easy to disclose to

1251
00:53:52,550 --> 00:53:55,888
control the sub licensees in China sub

1252
00:53:55,888 --> 00:53:58,238
licensees are very difficult control.

1253
00:53:58,240 --> 00:54:01,003
So in the negotiation they will talk a lot,

1254
00:54:01,010 --> 00:54:03,714
they will negotiate with you how less how

1255
00:54:03,714 --> 00:54:06,389
much they can control the sub licensee.

1256
00:54:06,390 --> 00:54:10,518
So we've seen this.

1257
00:54:10,520 --> 00:54:14,700
During the negotiation that the.

1258
00:54:14,700 --> 00:54:16,996
The licensee, they say we cannot give

1259
00:54:16,996 --> 00:54:18,823
you sub licensees information because

1260
00:54:18,823 --> 00:54:21,560
in China they those last sub licensees,

1261
00:54:21,560 --> 00:54:23,492
they wouldn't give us information and

1262
00:54:23,492 --> 00:54:26,218
also we can have less control over them.

1263
00:54:26,220 --> 00:54:29,136
So these kind of terms for the US side,

1264
00:54:29,140 --> 00:54:31,510
we have to understand that to

1265
00:54:31,510 --> 00:54:33,630
to be aware of that.

1266
00:54:33,630 --> 00:54:34,260
Uhm.

1267
00:54:36,430 --> 00:54:38,960
And the other important thing

1268
00:54:38,960 --> 00:54:42,403
you know in the license is a

1269
00:54:42,403 --> 00:54:44,839
due diligence I found out in.

1270
00:54:44,840 --> 00:54:46,360
In the Chinese company,

1271
00:54:46,360 --> 00:54:50,430
when they come to US to license a technology,

1272
00:54:50,430 --> 00:54:51,876
they look at the people they

1273
00:54:51,876 --> 00:54:53,336
look at the company's name,

1274
00:54:53,336 --> 00:54:55,912
they tend do less about due diligence

1275
00:54:55,912 --> 00:54:58,551
of the IP and then later on when

1276
00:54:58,551 --> 00:55:00,030
there's a problem, there's oh,

1277
00:55:00,030 --> 00:55:01,620
there's all the problem in there.

1278
00:55:01,620 --> 00:55:03,408
So for AUS entity,

1279
00:55:03,408 --> 00:55:06,582
it's better to talk to earlier to

1280
00:55:06,582 --> 00:55:09,742
them say here is our IP and disclose

1281
00:55:09,750 --> 00:55:12,249
more instead of later on when the

1282
00:55:12,249 --> 00:55:14,438
other party comes to you say hey,

1283
00:55:14,440 --> 00:55:16,308
I didn't see this.

1284
00:55:16,308 --> 00:55:18,643
That happens quite quite often,

1285
00:55:18,650 --> 00:55:20,780
so that's that's company had to

1286
00:55:20,780 --> 00:55:23,116
be aware and for the universities

1287
00:55:23,116 --> 00:55:25,642
it's pretty easy for a Chinese

1288
00:55:25,642 --> 00:55:28,484
entity to look at it because it's

1289
00:55:28,484 --> 00:55:30,404
it's most in the publication

1290
00:55:30,410 --> 00:55:32,377
and it's pretty open in and you

1291
00:55:32,377 --> 00:55:34,250
know if it's in the pattern.

1292
00:55:34,250 --> 00:55:36,889
But the company Wise there's a lot

1293
00:55:36,889 --> 00:55:39,772
of know how stuff need to you guys

1294
00:55:39,772 --> 00:55:41,879
to have to talk about huge sites.

1295
00:55:44,210 --> 00:55:47,276
So what we need to be aware

1296
00:55:47,276 --> 00:55:49,180
when your license your.

1297
00:55:49,180 --> 00:55:52,120
Stuff out to a Chinese entity.

1298
00:55:52,120 --> 00:55:54,260
You really have to consider

1299
00:55:54,260 --> 00:55:55,972
the export control issue,

1300
00:55:55,980 --> 00:56:01,516
although it's you know since the CFIUS that.

1301
00:56:01,520 --> 00:56:03,728
That there's a big drop of

1302
00:56:03,728 --> 00:56:05,200
Chinese investor in U.S.

1303
00:56:05,200 --> 00:56:06,396
companies. However,

1304
00:56:06,396 --> 00:56:09,984
there's increased a lot increase of

1305
00:56:09,984 --> 00:56:13,346
license from US to China because the

1306
00:56:13,346 --> 00:56:15,426
Chinese company Chinese investor will

1307
00:56:15,426 --> 00:56:18,139
invest more in the technology in,

1308
00:56:18,140 --> 00:56:21,396
in the location in China the so they

1309
00:56:21,396 --> 00:56:24,466
they they there's no serious review for

1310
00:56:24,466 --> 00:56:28,320
the per say for the license issue yet.

1311
00:56:28,320 --> 00:56:30,774
But you have to consider export

1312
00:56:30,774 --> 00:56:33,050
control especially for the genetic.

1313
00:56:33,050 --> 00:56:35,690
Information. Same issue for China too.

1314
00:56:35,690 --> 00:56:37,490
If you want to license

1315
00:56:37,490 --> 00:56:38,930
Chinese technology to US,

1316
00:56:38,930 --> 00:56:41,877
you have to really watch about this

1317
00:56:41,877 --> 00:56:43,916
genetic information because China has

1318
00:56:43,916 --> 00:56:46,912
very strict it's even the criminal

1319
00:56:46,912 --> 00:56:49,204
punishment if they improperly

1320
00:56:49,204 --> 00:56:52,650
transferred the genetic information into

1321
00:56:52,650 --> 00:56:56,071
foreign countries and also again very

1322
00:56:56,071 --> 00:56:58,297
common in the agreement you review,

1323
00:56:58,300 --> 00:57:00,460
what's the.

1324
00:57:00,460 --> 00:57:03,538
Our governing know the Chinese contract.

1325
00:57:03,540 --> 00:57:06,221
If you work with China to Chinese

1326
00:57:06,221 --> 00:57:08,234
contract is very simple yugiri

1327
00:57:08,234 --> 00:57:10,971
versus US contract is a very long

1328
00:57:10,971 --> 00:57:14,066
and what law to use and so many

1329
00:57:14,066 --> 00:57:16,048
times the compromises are used.

1330
00:57:16,048 --> 00:57:18,696
Hong Kong law or used Singapore

1331
00:57:18,696 --> 00:57:22,378
law that's that's kind of like a

1332
00:57:22,378 --> 00:57:25,013
mutually agreed but you have to

1333
00:57:25,013 --> 00:57:27,790
be aware of the change in here.

1334
00:57:27,790 --> 00:57:31,750
And one really important part in the license,

1335
00:57:31,750 --> 00:57:34,990
in my experience is that definitions,

1336
00:57:34,990 --> 00:57:36,350
you have to make earlier,

1337
00:57:36,350 --> 00:57:38,526
although you say that in the term sheet,

1338
00:57:38,530 --> 00:57:41,060
people more focused on the,

1339
00:57:41,060 --> 00:57:43,685
they're more focusing on the financial term.

1340
00:57:43,690 --> 00:57:46,378
It's the early you define those

1341
00:57:46,378 --> 00:57:49,043
those licensed product IP where you

1342
00:57:49,043 --> 00:57:51,794
know how the better for you 'cause.

1343
00:57:51,800 --> 00:57:53,350
In addition to a patent,

1344
00:57:53,350 --> 00:57:57,370
no heart comprised a lot of the IP in there.

1345
00:57:57,370 --> 00:58:00,835
Many times we found out that the

1346
00:58:00,840 --> 00:58:03,050
US company wants more information.

1347
00:58:03,050 --> 00:58:05,276
The Chinese company so only give you

1348
00:58:05,276 --> 00:58:07,190
this this little they didn't talk

1349
00:58:07,190 --> 00:58:09,290
about in the term sheet time they

1350
00:58:09,350 --> 00:58:11,534
they found out in the licensing I

1351
00:58:11,534 --> 00:58:14,294
mean the agreement time then it's

1352
00:58:14,294 --> 00:58:16,118
more extensive negotiations.

1353
00:58:16,120 --> 00:58:18,976
And the other thing on the

1354
00:58:18,976 --> 00:58:20,404
IP improvement part.

1355
00:58:20,410 --> 00:58:22,948
Many times people license their technology,

1356
00:58:22,950 --> 00:58:24,965
they improve and they they

1357
00:58:24,965 --> 00:58:26,980
try to ditch your name.

1358
00:58:26,980 --> 00:58:29,492
Just put their own IP and they use

1359
00:58:29,492 --> 00:58:31,987
this as their own patent filing.

1360
00:58:31,990 --> 00:58:33,845
So that part you have to understand,

1361
00:58:33,850 --> 00:58:36,954
you have to be aware and some university

1362
00:58:36,954 --> 00:58:40,144
they have like a reach out clause saying

1363
00:58:40,144 --> 00:58:43,038
we want anything in but enabled by

1364
00:58:43,038 --> 00:58:45,971
what pattern it's all also our pattern.

1365
00:58:45,980 --> 00:58:48,206
So this way you kind of control

1366
00:58:48,206 --> 00:58:50,798
how far you can get to your plan.

1367
00:58:50,800 --> 00:58:55,666
It's another negotiation process and the.

1368
00:58:55,670 --> 00:58:57,581
That the term has a lot of

1369
00:58:57,581 --> 00:58:59,629
like how much data you can use,

1370
00:58:59,630 --> 00:59:01,405
how much technology transfer you

1371
00:59:01,405 --> 00:59:03,990
can get and the more you detail,

1372
00:59:03,990 --> 00:59:06,034
the more detailed the better it is.

1373
00:59:06,040 --> 00:59:08,175
But I've seen the discrepancy

1374
00:59:08,175 --> 00:59:09,456
between two sides,

1375
00:59:09,460 --> 00:59:12,330
and especially the Chinese sides.

1376
00:59:12,330 --> 00:59:13,738
Usually they expect more,

1377
00:59:13,738 --> 00:59:15,146
but they didn't understand

1378
00:59:15,146 --> 00:59:16,989
in the early negotiation,

1379
00:59:16,990 --> 00:59:20,147
didn't put more in agreement later on,

1380
00:59:20,150 --> 00:59:21,650
did require require more.

1381
00:59:21,650 --> 00:59:24,560
So that's something you have to be aware.

1382
00:59:27,120 --> 00:59:29,280
And again in the license agreement,

1383
00:59:29,280 --> 00:59:31,205
as you know the due diligence part,

1384
00:59:31,210 --> 00:59:33,170
you have to look at the ownership or

1385
00:59:33,170 --> 00:59:35,155
you also have to discuss about not

1386
00:59:35,155 --> 00:59:36,929
joint ownership and for the joint

1387
00:59:36,929 --> 00:59:38,833
invention when you need to be aware

1388
00:59:38,833 --> 00:59:41,830
what you need to get the license

1389
00:59:41,830 --> 00:59:45,729
and who pays for the patent cost.

1390
00:59:45,730 --> 00:59:47,872
The last slides it's very simple

1391
00:59:47,872 --> 00:59:50,550
is what you need to as a license.

1392
00:59:50,550 --> 00:59:52,630
Or are you Jerry from the US side,

1393
00:59:52,630 --> 00:59:55,702
you make sure your your license is not

1394
00:59:55,702 --> 00:59:58,814
going to compete with you and and also

1395
00:59:58,814 --> 01:00:02,324
you have to make sure what you reserve

1396
01:00:02,324 --> 01:00:04,904
your rights and sometimes people don't.

1397
01:00:04,904 --> 01:00:07,193
It's it's a lot of vague thing

1398
01:00:07,193 --> 01:00:09,267
in the in the early stages.

1399
01:00:09,270 --> 01:00:11,405
So the more you talk about in

1400
01:00:11,405 --> 01:00:13,666
the term sheet the better it is

1401
01:00:13,666 --> 01:00:15,580
what you want to reserve and.

1402
01:00:15,580 --> 01:00:17,720
Make sure there's no challenge

1403
01:00:17,720 --> 01:00:19,820
to the pattern so this other,

1404
01:00:19,820 --> 01:00:22,370
just like a general review of

1405
01:00:22,370 --> 01:00:24,819
the license issue for your IP.

1406
01:00:24,820 --> 01:00:28,015
So we can I I'll talk more during the

1407
01:00:28,015 --> 01:00:30,738
discussion in terms of concerns over time.

1408
01:00:30,740 --> 01:00:32,600
Thank you here.

1409
01:00:32,600 --> 01:00:34,670
It's mine.

1410
01:00:34,670 --> 01:00:35,706
Thank you very much.

1411
01:00:35,706 --> 01:00:38,339
I want to thank all our excellent speakers

1412
01:00:38,339 --> 01:00:40,869
for the very comprehensive presentations.

1413
01:00:40,870 --> 01:00:43,285
They were excellent and I want to

1414
01:00:43,285 --> 01:00:45,355
remind everybody again that if you

1415
01:00:45,355 --> 01:00:47,287
do have questions for the speakers,

1416
01:00:47,290 --> 01:00:50,110
please email them to ask China

1417
01:00:50,110 --> 01:00:52,710
IP at USPTO dot giovi.

1418
01:00:52,710 --> 01:00:56,230
Again, ask China IP at USPTO dot giovi.

1419
01:00:56,230 --> 01:00:59,078
We'll have a Q&A period after our discussion.

1420
01:00:59,080 --> 01:01:02,293
So I wanted to go ahead and have a

1421
01:01:02,293 --> 01:01:05,267
discussion to kind of pull out some of the.

1422
01:01:05,270 --> 01:01:07,986
The things that each of the speakers

1423
01:01:07,986 --> 01:01:10,381
talked about and and perhaps

1424
01:01:10,381 --> 01:01:13,066
generate kind of discussion maybe

1425
01:01:13,066 --> 01:01:15,080
have maybe that will also generate

1426
01:01:15,080 --> 01:01:16,550
some questions from the audience.

1427
01:01:16,550 --> 01:01:19,478
So I want to go ahead and start

1428
01:01:19,478 --> 01:01:22,078
with Jill who gave an excellent

1429
01:01:22,078 --> 01:01:23,946
presentation on patent linkage.

1430
01:01:23,950 --> 01:01:25,696
Jill, you know,

1431
01:01:25,696 --> 01:01:29,188
you do have in your presentation.

1432
01:01:29,190 --> 01:01:31,404
A slider on the main differences

1433
01:01:31,404 --> 01:01:32,880
between the two panelists,

1434
01:01:32,880 --> 01:01:35,645
liquor systems in China and the US,

1435
01:01:35,650 --> 01:01:37,325
and you mentioned some of

1436
01:01:37,325 --> 01:01:38,330
the various aspects.

1437
01:01:38,330 --> 01:01:40,402
I wanted to ask you about the

1438
01:01:40,402 --> 01:01:42,268
administrative and judicial routes of the

1439
01:01:42,268 --> 01:01:44,104
patent linkage linkage system in China.

1440
01:01:44,110 --> 01:01:45,850
Understand that the patentee

1441
01:01:45,850 --> 01:01:47,590
must pick one route.

1442
01:01:47,590 --> 01:01:50,098
I hope my understanding is correct.

1443
01:01:50,100 --> 01:01:52,836
What are the advantages and disadvantages

1444
01:01:52,836 --> 01:01:55,480
of the administrative and the judicial

1445
01:01:55,480 --> 01:01:57,724
routes and how would you advise

1446
01:01:57,724 --> 01:02:00,247
clients as to which route to choose?

1447
01:02:02,840 --> 01:02:03,636
Thanks, yelling,

1448
01:02:03,636 --> 01:02:06,422
I think this is an excellent question.

1449
01:02:06,430 --> 01:02:08,830
First of all, there are pros and cons.

1450
01:02:08,830 --> 01:02:11,482
I need to be weighed in each

1451
01:02:11,482 --> 01:02:14,312
specific case to optimize your

1452
01:02:14,312 --> 01:02:16,010
position litigation position.

1453
01:02:16,010 --> 01:02:18,230
Visa V the other side,

1454
01:02:18,230 --> 01:02:20,966
so past we can take a look at

1455
01:02:20,966 --> 01:02:22,230
the administrative action.

1456
01:02:22,230 --> 01:02:24,490
Apparently that the single biggest

1457
01:02:24,490 --> 01:02:27,501
advantage I would think is that a

1458
01:02:27,501 --> 01:02:30,173
favorable ruling from the CN IPA as to

1459
01:02:30,248 --> 01:02:33,440
scope confirmation we talked about earlier.

1460
01:02:33,440 --> 01:02:36,811
Well, I thought the regulatory approval and.

1461
01:02:36,811 --> 01:02:40,419
The average time for CN IPA to adjudicate

1462
01:02:40,419 --> 01:02:44,397
and dispose the case is around six months,

1463
01:02:44,400 --> 01:02:46,980
so this means that within the

1464
01:02:46,980 --> 01:02:49,140
9-9 months or regulatory state,

1465
01:02:49,140 --> 01:02:50,586
it is doable.

1466
01:02:50,586 --> 01:02:53,960
If you can achieve a favorable result.

1467
01:02:53,960 --> 01:02:55,560
As to the second option,

1468
01:02:55,560 --> 01:02:57,620
which is the traditional action,

1469
01:02:57,620 --> 01:03:00,994
the Beijing IP quality is very established

1470
01:03:00,994 --> 01:03:03,873
and probably the most experienced IP

1471
01:03:03,873 --> 01:03:07,016
court in China with vast and wealth

1472
01:03:07,105 --> 01:03:09,751
of experience with and with experts

1473
01:03:09,751 --> 01:03:13,732
in every aspect of IP and patent law.

1474
01:03:13,732 --> 01:03:16,497
Are the Supreme Court perfectly

1475
01:03:16,497 --> 01:03:18,504
included provision and?

1476
01:03:18,504 --> 01:03:21,588
On polymer injunction, which is not

1477
01:03:21,588 --> 01:03:24,129
available before they see an IPA,

1478
01:03:24,130 --> 01:03:28,120
if one only uses the administrative route.

1479
01:03:28,120 --> 01:03:30,292
And the current preliminary

1480
01:03:30,292 --> 01:03:31,378
injunction practice.

1481
01:03:31,380 --> 01:03:33,884
As Jonathan mentioned earlier

1482
01:03:33,884 --> 01:03:36,388
is that when Validities?

1483
01:03:36,390 --> 01:03:39,218
In doubt, it will be impossible to

1484
01:03:39,218 --> 01:03:41,320
obtain a preliminary injunction,

1485
01:03:41,320 --> 01:03:42,972
but theoretically,

1486
01:03:42,972 --> 01:03:45,450
procedural flexibility before

1487
01:03:45,450 --> 01:03:47,928
Beijing IP Court,

1488
01:03:47,930 --> 01:03:50,384
I think is a potential consideration

1489
01:03:50,384 --> 01:03:53,769
that will need to be taken into account.

1490
01:03:53,770 --> 01:03:54,688
And naturally,

1491
01:03:54,688 --> 01:03:57,442
the question is from an optionality

1492
01:03:57,442 --> 01:03:58,830
point of view.

1493
01:03:58,830 --> 01:04:01,918
What will be worthwhile?

1494
01:04:01,920 --> 01:04:03,368
Initiating action.

1495
01:04:03,368 --> 01:04:07,712
At both forum to preserve flex

1496
01:04:07,712 --> 01:04:10,498
procedural flexibility and this is

1497
01:04:10,498 --> 01:04:13,934
possible if you go to the EPA 1st

1498
01:04:13,934 --> 01:04:17,510
and then go to the Beijing IP Court,

1499
01:04:17,510 --> 01:04:20,358
it is not under rule possible to do

1500
01:04:20,358 --> 01:04:23,749
that but other way round is not possible.

1501
01:04:23,750 --> 01:04:26,150
You cannot go to Beijing article

1502
01:04:26,150 --> 01:04:29,250
1st and then trying to do the

1503
01:04:29,250 --> 01:04:32,180
case again before they see an IPA.

1504
01:04:32,180 --> 01:04:33,998
So that's where things stand now.

1505
01:04:34,000 --> 01:04:36,610
And according to the statistics.

1506
01:04:36,610 --> 01:04:39,595
Currently the majority users or

1507
01:04:39,595 --> 01:04:42,803
the patented system have opted for

1508
01:04:42,803 --> 01:04:45,902
the Ministry of Roads to see an

1509
01:04:45,902 --> 01:04:48,326
IP have reported that they have

1510
01:04:48,326 --> 01:04:50,708
taken on more than 20 cases.

1511
01:04:50,710 --> 01:04:54,189
And there's only one reported case that

1512
01:04:54,189 --> 01:04:57,798
has been filed with Beijing IP court.

1513
01:04:57,800 --> 01:04:59,277
So you know it's a long answer

1514
01:04:59,277 --> 01:05:00,640
to respond to your question.

1515
01:05:02,890 --> 01:05:04,134
Great. Thank you, Jill.

1516
01:05:04,134 --> 01:05:05,067
That's very interesting.

1517
01:05:05,070 --> 01:05:06,780
Only one case file with

1518
01:05:06,780 --> 01:05:08,490
the the Beijing IP court.

1519
01:05:08,490 --> 01:05:11,220
I'm kind of curious if this is

1520
01:05:11,220 --> 01:05:13,760
a foreign or domestic case.

1521
01:05:13,760 --> 01:05:15,184
But anyway, thank you.

1522
01:05:15,184 --> 01:05:17,556
Yes, the following case is a foreign case.

1523
01:05:17,560 --> 01:05:18,830
OK, interesting.

1524
01:05:18,830 --> 01:05:22,005
Alright, thanks for that Jill.

1525
01:05:22,010 --> 01:05:26,514
I want to turn over to Jonathan next.

1526
01:05:26,520 --> 01:05:28,780
Jonathan, many foreign companies are

1527
01:05:28,780 --> 01:05:31,956
now aware that the judicial process in

1528
01:05:31,956 --> 01:05:34,494
China has limited means of discovery,

1529
01:05:34,500 --> 01:05:35,850
and you mentioned that as well.

1530
01:05:35,850 --> 01:05:37,212
That's one of the big differences

1531
01:05:37,212 --> 01:05:38,829
between the US and Chinese system.

1532
01:05:38,830 --> 01:05:40,936
What are some strategies you suggest

1533
01:05:40,936 --> 01:05:43,228
to foreign companies to help overcome

1534
01:05:43,228 --> 01:05:45,114
this obstacle, particularly U.S.

1535
01:05:45,114 --> 01:05:47,514
companies that are, you know,

1536
01:05:47,514 --> 01:05:49,926
very accustomed to much more discovery

1537
01:05:49,926 --> 01:05:53,109
than is available in the Chinese system?

1538
01:05:53,110 --> 01:05:53,550
Yeah.

1539
01:05:53,550 --> 01:05:56,184
So as I mentioned, in China,

1540
01:05:56,184 --> 01:05:58,806
we don't have the discovery process,

1541
01:05:58,810 --> 01:06:00,331
the basic principle,

1542
01:06:00,331 --> 01:06:03,373
the basic rule of evidence is

1543
01:06:03,373 --> 01:06:06,226
the one who assert here the

1544
01:06:06,226 --> 01:06:09,004
burden of proof to show evidence.

1545
01:06:09,010 --> 01:06:11,130
So that's the basic principle.

1546
01:06:11,130 --> 01:06:13,860
So since there is such a difference

1547
01:06:13,860 --> 01:06:17,297
between the US practice and China practice.

1548
01:06:17,300 --> 01:06:19,060
So for US clients,

1549
01:06:19,060 --> 01:06:21,580
my suggestion is firstly you need to

1550
01:06:21,580 --> 01:06:23,880
fix your evidence in a timely manner.

1551
01:06:23,880 --> 01:06:24,852
For example,

1552
01:06:24,852 --> 01:06:27,768
if you see the infringers offering

1553
01:06:27,768 --> 01:06:30,039
your product on our website,

1554
01:06:30,040 --> 01:06:32,370
then usually instruct your lawyer

1555
01:06:32,370 --> 01:06:35,707
to fix that evidence by inviting a

1556
01:06:35,707 --> 01:06:38,467
notary public to fix that evidence

1557
01:06:38,470 --> 01:06:41,410
and use notarization or like

1558
01:06:41,410 --> 01:06:45,530
time step to fix your evidence.

1559
01:06:45,530 --> 01:06:48,220
And that's the first suggestion.

1560
01:06:48,220 --> 01:06:50,914
The second one is to proactively

1561
01:06:50,914 --> 01:06:53,340
use the mirrors they assisting

1562
01:06:53,340 --> 01:06:56,604
measures provided by by the courts.

1563
01:06:56,610 --> 01:06:58,719
Like evidence, investigation,

1564
01:06:58,719 --> 01:06:59,422
order,

1565
01:06:59,422 --> 01:07:02,937
or evidence production order as

1566
01:07:02,937 --> 01:07:05,557
solution in my example cases.

1567
01:07:05,560 --> 01:07:08,632
In that case we we request the judge

1568
01:07:08,632 --> 01:07:11,709
to issue evidence production order.

1569
01:07:11,710 --> 01:07:15,805
So if the infant refuse to produce

1570
01:07:15,805 --> 01:07:18,270
the evidence production order,

1571
01:07:18,270 --> 01:07:21,582
the judge may rely on or evidence to

1572
01:07:21,582 --> 01:07:24,620
give a much higher compensation award.

1573
01:07:24,620 --> 01:07:26,720
So in that case.

1574
01:07:26,720 --> 01:07:29,226
The the the the infringer will be

1575
01:07:29,226 --> 01:07:31,280
forced to produce their financial

1576
01:07:31,280 --> 01:07:33,848
books and the sales contract. Yeah.

1577
01:07:33,848 --> 01:07:36,004
So that's my answer is thank you.

1578
01:07:38,070 --> 01:07:41,833
Right, OK. Uhm. That.

1579
01:07:41,833 --> 01:07:42,832
That's that's useful.

1580
01:07:42,832 --> 01:07:47,420
Thank you. Lynn, over to you.

1581
01:07:47,420 --> 01:07:49,723
I know that you had mentioned that

1582
01:07:49,723 --> 01:07:52,040
you have handled number biopharma

1583
01:07:52,040 --> 01:07:53,802
licensing transactions including

1584
01:07:53,802 --> 01:07:55,308
Chinese companies licensing

1585
01:07:55,308 --> 01:07:57,380
technologies from US from U.S.

1586
01:07:57,380 --> 01:07:59,060
companies and the other way around.

1587
01:07:59,060 --> 01:08:01,452
I wanted to know from you what are

1588
01:08:01,452 --> 01:08:04,302
some of the more unique aspects of

1589
01:08:04,302 --> 01:08:06,477
such licensing agreements that you

1590
01:08:06,548 --> 01:08:08,512
think are particularly important

1591
01:08:08,512 --> 01:08:11,366
for foreign companies to know and

1592
01:08:11,366 --> 01:08:13,346
addition to that particular would

1593
01:08:13,346 --> 01:08:16,060
be interesting to know some of the

1594
01:08:16,060 --> 01:08:17,950
more common pitfalls from AUS?

1595
01:08:17,950 --> 01:08:20,855
Country perspective and how to you know,

1596
01:08:20,860 --> 01:08:23,180
how would you suggest avoiding

1597
01:08:23,180 --> 01:08:24,706
those pitfalls? OK.

1598
01:08:24,706 --> 01:08:27,090
Thank you for me,

1599
01:08:27,090 --> 01:08:28,980
I think from the audience excitement,

1600
01:08:28,980 --> 01:08:32,208
IP due diligence is very important.

1601
01:08:32,210 --> 01:08:36,128
When they I found out that

1602
01:08:36,128 --> 01:08:38,740
in during the transactions.

1603
01:08:38,740 --> 01:08:40,105
The Chinese company,

1604
01:08:40,105 --> 01:08:42,380
they usually just say OK,

1605
01:08:42,380 --> 01:08:43,940
because Harvard's famous I'm just going

1606
01:08:43,940 --> 01:08:45,789
to go through this famous professor,

1607
01:08:45,790 --> 01:08:46,304
get it.

1608
01:08:46,304 --> 01:08:48,360
And when they look at the pattern stuff,

1609
01:08:48,360 --> 01:08:50,526
they didn't really look at the

1610
01:08:50,526 --> 01:08:52,540
word claim in campus and not

1611
01:08:52,540 --> 01:08:54,740
carefully reviewing what they need.

1612
01:08:54,740 --> 01:08:56,750
That's a that's a skip.

1613
01:08:56,750 --> 01:08:57,980
I thought I kept telling them,

1614
01:08:57,980 --> 01:08:59,388
don't skip this step.

1615
01:08:59,388 --> 01:09:01,840
It's important to know what you get.

1616
01:09:01,840 --> 01:09:03,410
And for the US company,

1617
01:09:03,410 --> 01:09:05,818
I also notice that when they license,

1618
01:09:05,820 --> 01:09:08,928
they thought their license something more.

1619
01:09:08,930 --> 01:09:10,202
But in Chinese side,

1620
01:09:10,202 --> 01:09:12,110
the only CEO only give them

1621
01:09:12,182 --> 01:09:13,510
a piece of sequence.

1622
01:09:13,510 --> 01:09:15,484
We don't give them all the data,

1623
01:09:15,490 --> 01:09:18,164
but death has to be really negotiated,

1624
01:09:18,170 --> 01:09:19,010
talked earlier.

1625
01:09:19,010 --> 01:09:21,110
See know how it's important?

1626
01:09:21,110 --> 01:09:23,158
I want more know how than I need

1627
01:09:23,158 --> 01:09:25,176
and the communication I see there

1628
01:09:25,176 --> 01:09:27,697
was lacking that in their past but

1629
01:09:27,697 --> 01:09:29,804
it's it's like a growing thing and

1630
01:09:29,804 --> 01:09:32,440
what you get when you're not getting

1631
01:09:32,440 --> 01:09:34,470
it even though there's agreement

1632
01:09:34,545 --> 01:09:36,929
sometime the mind is not neat so it's

1633
01:09:36,929 --> 01:09:39,630
a it's a contract issue they need to.

1634
01:09:39,630 --> 01:09:40,200
Talk more.

1635
01:09:42,640 --> 01:09:44,586
Do you like my eyes jumping their

1636
01:09:44,586 --> 01:09:46,848
best from a dispute point of view?

1637
01:09:46,850 --> 01:09:50,108
And I think for this type of licensing deals,

1638
01:09:50,110 --> 01:09:52,022
we've seen foreign companies

1639
01:09:52,022 --> 01:09:54,890
typically wanting to use a Delaware

1640
01:09:54,964 --> 01:09:57,129
court or court in California,

1641
01:09:57,130 --> 01:09:58,930
but you know for this type

1642
01:09:58,930 --> 01:10:00,130
of cross border transactions,

1643
01:10:00,130 --> 01:10:02,475
enforcing a foreign judgment from

1644
01:10:02,475 --> 01:10:05,870
US now still be near impossible.

1645
01:10:05,870 --> 01:10:07,430
There are presidents, presidents,

1646
01:10:07,430 --> 01:10:09,380
but there's no president in

1647
01:10:09,380 --> 01:10:11,457
the context of licensing deals.

1648
01:10:11,460 --> 01:10:12,892
So opting for arbitration.

1649
01:10:12,892 --> 01:10:15,499
And given that China is a member

1650
01:10:15,499 --> 01:10:17,449
of the New York Convention,

1651
01:10:17,450 --> 01:10:19,788
I think will be much desired option

1652
01:10:19,788 --> 01:10:22,719
in terms of dispute resolution 'cause.

1653
01:10:22,720 --> 01:10:24,827
We think that a lot so quickly

1654
01:10:24,827 --> 01:10:26,150
to jumping on that.

1655
01:10:26,150 --> 01:10:28,150
Yeah, thank you for that.

1656
01:10:28,150 --> 01:10:30,418
That is something that I think we we need

1657
01:10:30,418 --> 01:10:32,740
to remind ourselves about arbitration,

1658
01:10:32,740 --> 01:10:33,946
not something that we discussed so

1659
01:10:33,946 --> 01:10:35,618
much here in the US but I think

1660
01:10:35,618 --> 01:10:36,648
that's a really important point.

1661
01:10:36,650 --> 01:10:38,000
Thank you for bringing that up.

1662
01:10:38,000 --> 01:10:38,586
Jill 'cause,

1663
01:10:38,586 --> 01:10:40,344
I know that that's an important

1664
01:10:40,350 --> 01:10:42,950
Ave in China as well.

1665
01:10:42,950 --> 01:10:44,838
Other thing is I I forgot to mention

1666
01:10:44,838 --> 01:10:46,898
is they also need to understand

1667
01:10:46,898 --> 01:10:48,047
the political environment,

1668
01:10:48,050 --> 01:10:51,218
especially the USUS laws,

1669
01:10:51,218 --> 01:10:54,256
the CPS law and and export control.

1670
01:10:54,260 --> 01:10:55,830
They keep adding different lists.

1671
01:10:55,830 --> 01:10:57,927
Now we see farmers on one of the list.

1672
01:10:57,930 --> 01:11:00,234
So all these things they have

1673
01:11:00,234 --> 01:11:02,580
to be aware what's going on.

1674
01:11:02,580 --> 01:11:06,975
Right, exactly. Thank you. Uhm.

1675
01:11:06,975 --> 01:11:10,950
Let's move over to Jonathan.

1676
01:11:10,950 --> 01:11:11,301
Jonathan,

1677
01:11:11,301 --> 01:11:11,652
you,

1678
01:11:11,652 --> 01:11:14,109
you touched this briefly in your presentation

1679
01:11:14,109 --> 01:11:16,169
about the issue of supplemental data.

1680
01:11:16,170 --> 01:11:21,150
Certainly a longstanding issue for US

1681
01:11:21,150 --> 01:11:23,970
and foreign biopharma companies in China.

1682
01:11:23,970 --> 01:11:28,848
Can you explain the issue a little bit more?

1683
01:11:28,850 --> 01:11:30,978
And you had mentioned that it seems

1684
01:11:30,978 --> 01:11:32,936
that the issue perhaps has been

1685
01:11:32,936 --> 01:11:34,904
addressed and wanted to know a

1686
01:11:34,904 --> 01:11:36,907
little bit more about how exactly

1687
01:11:36,907 --> 01:11:39,680
it's been addressed and in your experience.

1688
01:11:39,680 --> 01:11:42,000
Experience of others hasn't

1689
01:11:42,000 --> 01:11:44,870
been addressed in a in a.

1690
01:11:44,870 --> 01:11:46,955
Hopefully satisfactory manner

1691
01:11:46,955 --> 01:11:49,040
for foreign companies.

1692
01:11:49,040 --> 01:11:49,481
Yeah.

1693
01:11:49,481 --> 01:11:50,363
So yes,

1694
01:11:50,363 --> 01:11:53,009
this is indeed a long standing

1695
01:11:53,009 --> 01:11:56,255
issue and also a hot issue for four

1696
01:11:56,255 --> 01:11:58,919
players in the biopharma field.

1697
01:11:58,920 --> 01:12:00,399
Uh and I,

1698
01:12:00,399 --> 01:12:05,240
I would like to say after the first one.

1699
01:12:05,240 --> 01:12:08,957
A treaty between China and the US,

1700
01:12:08,960 --> 01:12:12,626
we have seen a steady improvement

1701
01:12:12,630 --> 01:12:15,165
to warding the the direction

1702
01:12:15,165 --> 01:12:18,700
prescribed in the phase one agreement,

1703
01:12:18,700 --> 01:12:21,436
not only in the substantive examination

1704
01:12:21,436 --> 01:12:24,425
stage but also in the invalidation

1705
01:12:24,425 --> 01:12:27,665
procedure and in the court procedure.

1706
01:12:27,670 --> 01:12:34,002
We all see more lenient attitude toward more

1707
01:12:34,002 --> 01:12:36,834
friendly attitude toward post filing data.

1708
01:12:36,840 --> 01:12:38,193
Indeed, the truth.

1709
01:12:38,193 --> 01:12:41,350
But as to the criteria for the

1710
01:12:41,442 --> 01:12:44,478
acceptance of a post filing data,

1711
01:12:44,480 --> 01:12:48,120
I mean the substantive examination

1712
01:12:48,120 --> 01:12:52,312
I would like to say there is not so,

1713
01:12:52,312 --> 01:12:54,383
so, so huge difference.

1714
01:12:54,383 --> 01:12:58,534
There is still some difference between China,

1715
01:12:58,534 --> 01:12:59,796
US practice.

1716
01:12:59,800 --> 01:13:03,685
So I think the Chinese Examiner they

1717
01:13:03,685 --> 01:13:07,390
still hold that the basis of four.

1718
01:13:07,390 --> 01:13:10,438
For the for the patent system

1719
01:13:10,438 --> 01:13:13,570
is disclosure are for protection

1720
01:13:13,570 --> 01:13:16,251
and based on that they they have

1721
01:13:16,251 --> 01:13:18,339
a still strict requirement that

1722
01:13:18,339 --> 01:13:21,307
the post filing data or the fact

1723
01:13:21,307 --> 01:13:24,413
to be approved by the post filing

1724
01:13:24,413 --> 01:13:26,141
data should be clearly

1725
01:13:26,150 --> 01:13:29,525
and specifically disclosed in the

1726
01:13:29,525 --> 01:13:32,290
written description and based on

1727
01:13:32,290 --> 01:13:35,580
that criteria if the client wants to

1728
01:13:35,677 --> 01:13:39,128
file some post filing data to prove.

1729
01:13:39,130 --> 01:13:42,539
The some technical effect which is not

1730
01:13:42,539 --> 01:13:45,950
actually recorded in the red description

1731
01:13:45,950 --> 01:13:47,994
for for that kind of situation it

1732
01:13:47,994 --> 01:13:50,210
is still not acceptable in China.

1733
01:13:50,210 --> 01:13:53,250
So in short, I mean in general we

1734
01:13:53,250 --> 01:13:55,965
are having more limited and friendly

1735
01:13:55,965 --> 01:13:58,761
at you to post variant data,

1736
01:13:58,770 --> 01:14:02,218
but the the we need to see the

1737
01:14:02,218 --> 01:14:04,460
progress step by step yeah.

1738
01:14:07,470 --> 01:14:11,840
OK, good. Thank you. Uh, let's see.

1739
01:14:11,840 --> 01:14:14,660
Let's let's go back to Jill.

1740
01:14:14,660 --> 01:14:17,644
UM, another question about

1741
01:14:17,644 --> 01:14:20,628
the pan linkage system.

1742
01:14:20,630 --> 01:14:24,370
This is 1 about biologics.

1743
01:14:24,370 --> 01:14:26,337
Are the are the list of what

1744
01:14:26,337 --> 01:14:28,094
pants for biologists only limited

1745
01:14:28,094 --> 01:14:31,140
to sequential structure? So.

1746
01:14:31,140 --> 01:14:33,932
What if I have a patent for say

1747
01:14:33,932 --> 01:14:36,014
cellular extract or something that

1748
01:14:36,014 --> 01:14:38,194
is not a sequential structure?

1749
01:14:38,200 --> 01:14:40,208
Am I out of luck to utilize the

1750
01:14:40,208 --> 01:14:42,420
new patent linkage system? Can you?

1751
01:14:42,420 --> 01:14:44,670
Tell me. Explain that to me.

1752
01:14:44,670 --> 01:14:47,300
Thanks. So thanks for lying.

1753
01:14:47,300 --> 01:14:49,904
So why now the patent linked system

1754
01:14:49,904 --> 01:14:52,762
I mean the patent linkage litigation

1755
01:14:52,762 --> 01:14:56,619
system is only limited to chemicals drugs.

1756
01:14:56,620 --> 01:14:58,676
So biologics are large,

1757
01:14:58,676 --> 01:15:01,760
wouldn't be able to avail of

1758
01:15:01,866 --> 01:15:04,438
the patent linkage system,

1759
01:15:04,440 --> 01:15:07,653
although Article 76 or patent law in

1760
01:15:07,653 --> 01:15:11,507
itself is not limited to chemical drugs.

1761
01:15:11,510 --> 01:15:14,779
And what is happening right now will

1762
01:15:14,779 --> 01:15:17,898
be that about logic companies will

1763
01:15:17,898 --> 01:15:21,138
be able to submit part listings

1764
01:15:21,140 --> 01:15:23,215
and they can list sequential

1765
01:15:23,215 --> 01:15:25,760
structure but can only do that.

1766
01:15:25,760 --> 01:15:28,595
And as I mentioned in my presentation,

1767
01:15:28,600 --> 01:15:31,300
China with right now only inclining

1768
01:15:31,300 --> 01:15:34,610
for this system to be an experiment.

1769
01:15:34,610 --> 01:15:37,506
So in future there will be new rules

1770
01:15:37,506 --> 01:15:39,461
and hopefully biologics will be

1771
01:15:39,461 --> 01:15:42,149
covered and one now be only limited

1772
01:15:42,226 --> 01:15:44,330
to sequential structure only.

1773
01:15:44,330 --> 01:15:47,030
But we will need to.

1774
01:15:47,030 --> 01:15:49,208
Time to see how things unfold.

1775
01:15:51,410 --> 01:15:53,466
OK. Thank you. So let's wait and see.

1776
01:15:53,470 --> 01:16:00,450
OK. Yep. Yep. Alright, uhm.

1777
01:16:00,450 --> 01:16:04,139
Going back to Lynn about licensing trends,

1778
01:16:04,140 --> 01:16:08,028
just just looking into the next few years.

1779
01:16:08,030 --> 01:16:10,244
What licensing trends do you see

1780
01:16:10,244 --> 01:16:12,479
that may be important for a U.S.

1781
01:16:12,480 --> 01:16:13,710
company to know?

1782
01:16:13,710 --> 01:16:14,940
From your experience,

1783
01:16:14,940 --> 01:16:16,770
what you've seen so far?

1784
01:16:16,770 --> 01:16:19,878
Yeah, as I had mentioned earlier that

1785
01:16:19,878 --> 01:16:22,670
the investment trend is dropping their

1786
01:16:22,670 --> 01:16:25,370
licensing trends is increasing from

1787
01:16:25,370 --> 01:16:28,761
China to in license US technology

1788
01:16:28,761 --> 01:16:31,606
to improve their own portfolio.

1789
01:16:31,610 --> 01:16:34,025
And there are like I have many,

1790
01:16:34,030 --> 01:16:36,186
many friends, they move back to China,

1791
01:16:36,190 --> 01:16:37,486
they start a company.

1792
01:16:37,486 --> 01:16:40,185
So I will see more and more in

1793
01:16:40,185 --> 01:16:42,558
license what do we call that from

1794
01:16:42,558 --> 01:16:45,107
from US that especially from early

1795
01:16:45,110 --> 01:16:47,020
early technology for the startup.

1796
01:16:47,020 --> 01:16:48,320
Company like University Technology,

1797
01:16:48,320 --> 01:16:49,945
more and more like that.

1798
01:16:49,950 --> 01:16:52,638
Also from China, there will be more.

1799
01:16:52,640 --> 01:16:55,560
They some company want the late stage asset.

1800
01:16:55,560 --> 01:16:57,280
The company was which had

1801
01:16:57,280 --> 01:16:59,650
equipped with a lot of funding.

1802
01:16:59,650 --> 01:17:02,690
They were in license more late stage

1803
01:17:02,690 --> 01:17:06,155
assets from US for the China rights.

1804
01:17:06,160 --> 01:17:08,428
However because most the company you

1805
01:17:08,428 --> 01:17:11,536
know a lot of IPO company in China

1806
01:17:11,536 --> 01:17:14,330
their their value is cut into half

1807
01:17:14,330 --> 01:17:16,903
those company needs more money and.

1808
01:17:16,903 --> 01:17:17,629
There are.

1809
01:17:17,629 --> 01:17:20,170
There will be some good assets from

1810
01:17:20,245 --> 01:17:22,925
China to our license to the US company

1811
01:17:22,925 --> 01:17:25,766
and they were all licensed more like

1812
01:17:25,766 --> 01:17:28,276
a worldwide acceptor except for X,

1813
01:17:28,276 --> 01:17:29,088
Greater China,

1814
01:17:29,088 --> 01:17:29,494
right.

1815
01:17:29,494 --> 01:17:31,930
So you will get probably more

1816
01:17:32,014 --> 01:17:34,331
good yield for the US company to

1817
01:17:34,331 --> 01:17:36,828
look for in Chinese asset to that.

1818
01:17:36,828 --> 01:17:38,136
So I think that's the trend.

1819
01:17:40,860 --> 01:17:44,804
OK. Interesting. Uhm. OK.

1820
01:17:44,804 --> 01:17:49,950
OK, good. Jill, over to you,

1821
01:17:49,950 --> 01:17:53,550
this is a question about tantrum

1822
01:17:53,550 --> 01:17:55,855
extension and I understand that PAN

1823
01:17:55,855 --> 01:17:57,862
trim extension in the draft LB law

1824
01:17:57,862 --> 01:17:59,527
implementing regulations is only limited.

1825
01:17:59,530 --> 01:18:02,460
Certain classes of improved drugs.

1826
01:18:02,460 --> 01:18:06,625
Uh uhm, it particularly the draft patent

1827
01:18:06,625 --> 01:18:09,349
examination guidelines issued last year.

1828
01:18:09,350 --> 01:18:11,720
Does it mean that improved drugs

1829
01:18:11,720 --> 01:18:13,822
outside those listed are not

1830
01:18:13,822 --> 01:18:15,598
getting hand term extension?

1831
01:18:15,600 --> 01:18:18,510
Is this something you can address?

1832
01:18:18,510 --> 01:18:18,896
Right.

1833
01:18:18,896 --> 01:18:21,598
So we are all still waiting and

1834
01:18:21,598 --> 01:18:24,264
trying to see what will be coming

1835
01:18:24,264 --> 01:18:26,997
out of the final part is amination

1836
01:18:26,997 --> 01:18:29,937
guidelines to be issued by CN IPA.

1837
01:18:29,940 --> 01:18:31,485
Hopefully this will be out

1838
01:18:31,485 --> 01:18:33,030
within the next few months.

1839
01:18:33,030 --> 01:18:35,221
Until that I I don't have a

1840
01:18:35,221 --> 01:18:37,189
clear answer to the question,

1841
01:18:37,190 --> 01:18:39,584
but you are right according to

1842
01:18:39,584 --> 01:18:41,180
the draft examination guidelines,

1843
01:18:41,180 --> 01:18:43,725
only certain improvements will be

1844
01:18:43,725 --> 01:18:46,270
eligible for patent term extension.

1845
01:18:46,270 --> 01:18:48,870
But I think we should take a step back and.

1846
01:18:48,870 --> 01:18:51,355
There are also a few things I

1847
01:18:51,355 --> 01:18:53,420
think company should bear in mind.

1848
01:18:53,420 --> 01:18:57,050
According to the drug examination guidelines,

1849
01:18:57,050 --> 01:19:00,165
only new drug that has not been

1850
01:19:00,165 --> 01:19:02,546
marketed anywhere in the world

1851
01:19:02,546 --> 01:19:05,420
will be eligible for patent term

1852
01:19:05,420 --> 01:19:07,658
extension and that concept new

1853
01:19:07,658 --> 01:19:10,202
drug on actually is not consistent

1854
01:19:10,202 --> 01:19:13,055
with the new drug definition and

1855
01:19:13,055 --> 01:19:15,455
the PRC Drug Administration law.

1856
01:19:15,460 --> 01:19:18,766
So this is also something partitioners

1857
01:19:18,766 --> 01:19:20,419
within apartment community.

1858
01:19:20,420 --> 01:19:22,982
Public debating a lot and trying to

1859
01:19:22,982 --> 01:19:25,162
grapple with the hopefully given

1860
01:19:25,162 --> 01:19:27,677
the perspective from the industry,

1861
01:19:27,680 --> 01:19:30,025
I think not only from foreign companies

1862
01:19:30,025 --> 01:19:32,520
but also from domestic companies are

1863
01:19:32,520 --> 01:19:34,890
China has increasingly become the

1864
01:19:34,890 --> 01:19:37,300
world's innovation hub for life sciences.

1865
01:19:37,300 --> 01:19:40,282
Hopefully there will be better certainty

1866
01:19:40,282 --> 01:19:43,556
and clarity from CN IPA when they

1867
01:19:43,556 --> 01:19:47,910
issue the final examination guidelines.

1868
01:19:47,910 --> 01:19:48,846
OK. Thanks, Joe.

1869
01:19:48,846 --> 01:19:51,030
So this is another wait and see.

1870
01:19:51,030 --> 01:19:53,202
Yeah, yeah.

1871
01:19:53,202 --> 01:19:54,288
OK.

1872
01:19:54,290 --> 01:19:57,450
So I wanted to see if there are

1873
01:19:57,450 --> 01:19:59,910
any questions from the audience.

1874
01:19:59,910 --> 01:20:01,230
We have some more questions

1875
01:20:01,230 --> 01:20:02,550
to ask of the speakers,

1876
01:20:02,550 --> 01:20:04,899
but I wanted to give the opportunity to the

1877
01:20:04,899 --> 01:20:06,827
audience to see if there's any questions.

1878
01:20:06,830 --> 01:20:07,240
Larry,

1879
01:20:07,240 --> 01:20:10,520
I know you've been looking at the questions.

1880
01:20:10,520 --> 01:20:13,348
Are there any things that from the

1881
01:20:13,348 --> 01:20:16,090
audience that we actually have quite a

1882
01:20:16,090 --> 01:20:19,448
few that came in through the ask China IP?

1883
01:20:19,450 --> 01:20:21,106
Uh, email address, let me just.

1884
01:20:21,110 --> 01:20:21,457
Uh.

1885
01:20:21,457 --> 01:20:24,233
I kind of sorted them a little bit.

1886
01:20:24,240 --> 01:20:26,508
The first question I think go

1887
01:20:26,508 --> 01:20:28,770
to probably all three speakers.

1888
01:20:28,770 --> 01:20:30,813
Can you ask the panel the need to have

1889
01:20:30,813 --> 01:20:33,134
a Chinese company as a partner if U.S.

1890
01:20:33,140 --> 01:20:34,812
company plans to commercialize

1891
01:20:34,812 --> 01:20:36,484
a product in China?

1892
01:20:36,490 --> 01:20:37,699
In the past,

1893
01:20:37,699 --> 01:20:40,428
the best practice has also has indicated

1894
01:20:40,428 --> 01:20:42,892
there was a need to have a Chinese

1895
01:20:42,892 --> 01:20:45,236
based company to address local policy,

1896
01:20:45,240 --> 01:20:49,391
local politics and practice also to infer

1897
01:20:49,391 --> 01:20:52,960
ensure fair treatment before the courts.

1898
01:20:52,960 --> 01:20:54,988
And what what is the I

1899
01:20:54,988 --> 01:20:56,990
guess for all three panels,

1900
01:20:56,990 --> 01:20:58,976
what's your take on the question?

1901
01:21:01,700 --> 01:21:04,969
Just from a I can't start from

1902
01:21:04,969 --> 01:21:06,652
licensing part and that's what

1903
01:21:06,652 --> 01:21:08,470
happened to a lot of companies.

1904
01:21:08,470 --> 01:21:10,666
They license their good asset to

1905
01:21:10,670 --> 01:21:14,546
Chinese company like Zylab by Gene.

1906
01:21:14,550 --> 01:21:16,435
They also licensed in license

1907
01:21:16,435 --> 01:21:18,320
that big Chinese farmer actually

1908
01:21:18,385 --> 01:21:20,150
the original life in license.

1909
01:21:20,150 --> 01:21:22,614
A lot of fact and they helped to

1910
01:21:22,614 --> 01:21:24,767
promote their own drugs in in China.

1911
01:21:24,770 --> 01:21:26,802
I think that's uh.

1912
01:21:26,802 --> 01:21:29,342
Good model at this time.

1913
01:21:29,350 --> 01:21:29,880
That's Mike.

1914
01:21:32,130 --> 01:21:34,706
Yeah, I think what we were served on

1915
01:21:34,706 --> 01:21:37,028
equality and that's because of the

1916
01:21:37,028 --> 01:21:39,038
huge patient population in China,

1917
01:21:39,040 --> 01:21:41,888
a lot of multinationals are also trying to

1918
01:21:41,888 --> 01:21:44,418
take advantage of clinical trials in China.

1919
01:21:44,420 --> 01:21:47,030
But as link mentioned in China,

1920
01:21:47,030 --> 01:21:49,487
we have this human genetic data region,

1921
01:21:49,490 --> 01:21:51,656
meaning that if you're trying to

1922
01:21:51,656 --> 01:21:53,770
get clinical data out of China,

1923
01:21:53,770 --> 01:21:55,966
you need to go through certain

1924
01:21:55,966 --> 01:21:57,064
mistreated full process.

1925
01:21:57,070 --> 01:21:59,860
And because of that regime place

1926
01:21:59,860 --> 01:22:02,154
and because of the ongoing.

1927
01:22:02,154 --> 01:22:04,758
Political tensions are would tend to

1928
01:22:04,758 --> 01:22:07,479
believe that it would still be best

1929
01:22:07,479 --> 01:22:10,130
practice to work with a PRC partner,

1930
01:22:10,130 --> 01:22:12,587
but how you can diligence their partner

1931
01:22:12,587 --> 01:22:15,298
and ensure you have safeguards in place

1932
01:22:15,298 --> 01:22:17,680
to ensure a smooth collaboration and

1933
01:22:17,746 --> 01:22:20,138
to get clinical data out of China I

1934
01:22:20,138 --> 01:22:23,665
think will be something that require not

1935
01:22:23,665 --> 01:22:25,774
contractual provisions to protect you,

1936
01:22:25,774 --> 01:22:28,060
but as well as ongoing operational

1937
01:22:28,130 --> 01:22:30,570
vigilance throughout the collaboration.

1938
01:22:34,530 --> 01:22:37,743
Yes. Uh. So from time to time I'm also

1939
01:22:37,743 --> 01:22:40,234
confronted with this kind of question

1940
01:22:40,234 --> 01:22:42,780
from our foreign clients about the

1941
01:22:42,780 --> 01:22:45,450
political impact on the outcome of

1942
01:22:45,450 --> 01:22:48,439
a patent infringement litigation.

1943
01:22:48,440 --> 01:22:50,290
So from my personal experience,

1944
01:22:50,290 --> 01:22:54,982
I think that's not so significant

1945
01:22:54,982 --> 01:22:58,010
because especially in the patent

1946
01:22:58,010 --> 01:23:00,807
infringement litigation. So in our

1947
01:23:00,807 --> 01:23:05,540
case is we are we are asserting over.

1948
01:23:05,540 --> 01:23:08,260
Assertions by using evidence.

1949
01:23:08,260 --> 01:23:11,252
So, so long as we have evidence to show

1950
01:23:11,252 --> 01:23:14,126
we have fixed in the infringing products,

1951
01:23:14,130 --> 01:23:16,489
we have our test report and the

1952
01:23:16,489 --> 01:23:18,649
result shows there is infringement.

1953
01:23:18,650 --> 01:23:20,834
At least you can get injunction order

1954
01:23:20,834 --> 01:23:23,299
as to the monetary compensation.

1955
01:23:23,300 --> 01:23:26,132
Uh, at least in my case I didn't

1956
01:23:26,132 --> 01:23:28,659
see such political influence.

1957
01:23:28,660 --> 01:23:28,990
Yeah.

1958
01:23:31,210 --> 01:23:32,594
OK. Thank you everybody.

1959
01:23:32,594 --> 01:23:35,095
Another question is kind of may be

1960
01:23:35,095 --> 01:23:36,895
related with the first question,

1961
01:23:36,900 --> 01:23:38,031
the question asked,

1962
01:23:38,031 --> 01:23:40,670
can you elaborate on the licensee trying

1963
01:23:40,733 --> 01:23:42,869
to improve pattern then ditch the?

1964
01:23:42,870 --> 01:23:44,662
Ditching the pen owner,

1965
01:23:44,662 --> 01:23:46,902
are there any case studies,

1966
01:23:46,910 --> 01:23:48,906
either domestic or foreign,

1967
01:23:48,906 --> 01:23:52,426
and what would you advise the pen

1968
01:23:52,426 --> 01:23:55,485
owner to preempt such an attempt by

1969
01:23:55,485 --> 01:23:58,466
a licensee to ditch the pen owner?

1970
01:23:58,470 --> 01:23:59,643
I've probably can't.

1971
01:23:59,643 --> 01:24:01,610
I can take this question.

1972
01:24:01,610 --> 01:24:03,610
It happens quite a bit.

1973
01:24:03,610 --> 01:24:07,187
A lot happens quite in peoples minds.

1974
01:24:07,190 --> 01:24:07,955
They, you know,

1975
01:24:07,955 --> 01:24:10,089
as a licensee they want take this license

1976
01:24:10,089 --> 01:24:12,098
over then they improve a little bit.

1977
01:24:12,100 --> 01:24:14,424
They ditched license or so they can't,

1978
01:24:14,430 --> 01:24:17,475
they avoid by paying by avoid paying

1979
01:24:17,475 --> 01:24:19,875
maintenance fee and royalty whatever

1980
01:24:19,875 --> 01:24:23,438
downstream and then they become their own.

1981
01:24:23,440 --> 01:24:27,416
IP become their own IP and then.

1982
01:24:27,420 --> 01:24:29,674
As a license or it's really important

1983
01:24:29,674 --> 01:24:31,816
to put some language saying anything

1984
01:24:31,816 --> 01:24:34,860
related and you have to be more space.

1985
01:24:34,860 --> 01:24:36,344
You know just like.

1986
01:24:36,344 --> 01:24:37,086
The university,

1987
01:24:37,090 --> 01:24:38,728
the Big University,

1988
01:24:38,728 --> 01:24:41,458
anything enabled by our technology,

1989
01:24:41,460 --> 01:24:42,903
that's our IP.

1990
01:24:42,903 --> 01:24:47,360
You insist on that and that's very important.

1991
01:24:47,360 --> 01:24:47,683
2.

1992
01:24:47,683 --> 01:24:50,267
Avoid them to get you or and also

1993
01:24:50,267 --> 01:24:53,611
you need to make sure the language if

1994
01:24:53,611 --> 01:24:56,280
they have anything you you need to

1995
01:24:56,280 --> 01:25:00,648
get a free license to for you to use.

1996
01:25:00,650 --> 01:25:01,036
It.

1997
01:25:01,036 --> 01:25:03,738
Yeah, it's being negotiated back and forth.

1998
01:25:03,740 --> 01:25:06,160
I've been representing both sides,

1999
01:25:06,160 --> 01:25:07,090
but the side,

2000
01:25:07,090 --> 01:25:08,950
if you you have upper hand,

2001
01:25:08,950 --> 01:25:11,185
you insist on anything enabled

2002
01:25:11,185 --> 01:25:12,526
by my technology,

2003
01:25:12,530 --> 01:25:15,779
you need to that I need to have a

2004
01:25:15,779 --> 01:25:18,354
share or I need to be the owner.

2005
01:25:18,354 --> 01:25:19,770
Maybe that's too much,

2006
01:25:19,770 --> 01:25:21,912
but you can at least get some

2007
01:25:21,912 --> 01:25:23,340
share out of there.

2008
01:25:23,340 --> 01:25:25,815
I also wanted to add a few points here.

2009
01:25:25,820 --> 01:25:28,404
Fully agree with link as I think I

2010
01:25:28,404 --> 01:25:31,075
had a case where permitted licensee

2011
01:25:31,075 --> 01:25:33,985
using our clients know how and

2012
01:25:34,067 --> 01:25:37,062
filed more than 100 patents in China

2013
01:25:37,062 --> 01:25:39,498
Latin extreme case but it's peaceful.

2014
01:25:39,500 --> 01:25:42,116
The importance of protecting our know

2015
01:25:42,116 --> 01:25:45,689
how and how you can include as much

2016
01:25:45,689 --> 01:25:49,129
as contract protection as you can think of.

2017
01:25:49,130 --> 01:25:51,620
So restrictive covenants in agreement

2018
01:25:51,620 --> 01:25:53,612
will be critically important.

2019
01:25:53,620 --> 01:25:55,846
And I think it's also important

2020
01:25:55,846 --> 01:25:58,592
to have an audit class so that

2021
01:25:58,592 --> 01:26:00,968
you can invoke the rather causes

2022
01:26:00,968 --> 01:26:03,207
some situation is not going right.

2023
01:26:03,210 --> 01:26:05,335
But again there requires certain

2024
01:26:05,335 --> 01:26:07,460
level vigilance oil can properly

2025
01:26:07,527 --> 01:26:09,043
monitor potential filings made

2026
01:26:09,043 --> 01:26:11,855
by a licensee or having any local

2027
01:26:11,855 --> 01:26:14,195
intelligence from employees in China.

2028
01:26:14,200 --> 01:26:17,896
I think this is something a lot

2029
01:26:17,896 --> 01:26:21,232
of companies are facing but but

2030
01:26:21,232 --> 01:26:24,178
contractual protection is the first line.

2031
01:26:24,180 --> 01:26:26,525
Of defense for you have a proper

2032
01:26:26,525 --> 01:26:27,530
contract in place.

2033
01:26:30,440 --> 01:26:31,568
OK. Thank you.

2034
01:26:31,568 --> 01:26:34,200
The next question is with regard to

2035
01:26:34,285 --> 01:26:37,293
Article 14 of the of China's patent law.

2036
01:26:37,300 --> 01:26:40,380
I actually quickly looked at Article 14.

2037
01:26:40,380 --> 01:26:43,670
I think it may the.

2038
01:26:43,670 --> 01:26:46,484
Audience are didn't catch the name here.

2039
01:26:46,490 --> 01:26:48,506
I may have misread Article 14,

2040
01:26:48,510 --> 01:26:50,724
but let me just read your question to you.

2041
01:26:50,730 --> 01:26:53,079
I think there may be 2 sort of two

2042
01:26:53,079 --> 01:26:55,328
aspects that we can separately address.

2043
01:26:55,330 --> 01:26:57,412
So the audience Questions Article 14

2044
01:26:57,412 --> 01:26:59,886
of China's time law allows Chinese

2045
01:26:59,886 --> 01:27:02,875
central government to permit designated

2046
01:27:02,875 --> 01:27:06,150
units to exploit important invention.

2047
01:27:06,150 --> 01:27:07,431
Uh, important invention,

2048
01:27:07,431 --> 01:27:09,566
so long as the exploitation

2049
01:27:09,566 --> 01:27:12,167
fee is paid to the pen holder.

2050
01:27:12,170 --> 01:27:12,673
Essentially,

2051
01:27:12,673 --> 01:27:16,194
Article 14 allows an open licensing system.

2052
01:27:16,200 --> 01:27:21,000
What are possible paths for a pen holder?

2053
01:27:21,000 --> 01:27:23,992
That that a pen holder can take to

2054
01:27:23,992 --> 01:27:25,931
avoid unwanted companies obtaining

2055
01:27:25,931 --> 01:27:29,835
a license to the patentees IP in

2056
01:27:29,835 --> 01:27:32,630
situations such as Article 14,

2057
01:27:32,630 --> 01:27:35,630
and let me explain why.

2058
01:27:35,630 --> 01:27:38,738
I think the Article 14 actually

2059
01:27:38,738 --> 01:27:42,968
maybe may not be about open license.

2060
01:27:42,970 --> 01:27:44,866
I quickly looked at Article 14.

2061
01:27:44,870 --> 01:27:48,220
Actually it's about invention, patent.

2062
01:27:48,220 --> 01:27:51,940
Uh, by a state owned enterprise,

2063
01:27:51,940 --> 01:27:53,940
if that's of great significance,

2064
01:27:53,940 --> 01:27:56,640
the government can.

2065
01:27:56,640 --> 01:27:57,576
It's kind of like the US,

2066
01:27:57,580 --> 01:27:58,476
Martin writes.

2067
01:27:58,476 --> 01:27:58,924
So,

2068
01:27:58,924 --> 01:28:01,612
but I think the audience questions

2069
01:28:01,612 --> 01:28:04,118
still valid sort of two aspects.

2070
01:28:04,120 --> 01:28:07,578
Number one is the state owned enterprise

2071
01:28:07,580 --> 01:28:09,800
produced patterns the government can

2072
01:28:09,800 --> 01:28:13,080
kind of March in if it's important

2073
01:28:13,080 --> 01:28:15,760
and the open licensing system,

2074
01:28:15,760 --> 01:28:18,728
I forgot which article is sort of a

2075
01:28:18,728 --> 01:28:20,829
separate article in the patent law.

2076
01:28:20,830 --> 01:28:22,660
And let me maybe take a

2077
01:28:22,660 --> 01:28:24,630
first stab at the question.

2078
01:28:24,630 --> 01:28:27,318
I think the open licensing system

2079
01:28:27,318 --> 01:28:29,047
is totally voluntary, right?

2080
01:28:29,047 --> 01:28:31,686
So if you don't want your pattern

2081
01:28:31,690 --> 01:28:36,394
to be to be listed as open as listed

2082
01:28:36,394 --> 01:28:39,079
as available to open license.

2083
01:28:39,080 --> 01:28:40,664
You don't have to.

2084
01:28:40,664 --> 01:28:43,040
But once you list your patent

2085
01:28:43,124 --> 01:28:45,599
in that open licensing system.

2086
01:28:45,600 --> 01:28:48,180
And this is a question for all three of you.

2087
01:28:48,180 --> 01:28:50,119
I don't think you can then say,

2088
01:28:50,120 --> 01:28:51,220
oh, I want, I can.

2089
01:28:51,220 --> 01:28:51,589
Uh,

2090
01:28:51,589 --> 01:28:54,172
I don't think you can say two

2091
01:28:54,172 --> 01:28:56,092
potential licensee or I want to

2092
01:28:56,092 --> 01:28:58,323
license to you but not the other

2093
01:28:58,323 --> 01:28:59,981
licensee open licensing system

2094
01:28:59,981 --> 01:29:01,916
mean anybody can license right.

2095
01:29:01,920 --> 01:29:04,098
And you actually list out the

2096
01:29:04,098 --> 01:29:06,080
terms and the fees right.

2097
01:29:06,080 --> 01:29:06,629
Am I right?

2098
01:29:09,410 --> 01:29:11,168
Yes, I think you're right, Larry.

2099
01:29:11,168 --> 01:29:14,952
So the open lessons reading is it's newly

2100
01:29:14,952 --> 01:29:17,724
introduced into the Chinese patent law in

2101
01:29:17,724 --> 01:29:20,561
the 4th Amendment to the Chinese patent

2102
01:29:20,561 --> 01:29:23,240
law and it's voluntary voluntarily.

2103
01:29:23,240 --> 01:29:27,224
It's not something you're forced to to

2104
01:29:27,224 --> 01:29:30,068
allow open lessons of your patterns,

2105
01:29:30,070 --> 01:29:33,730
but you have also once you the cmap,

2106
01:29:33,730 --> 01:29:36,040
even after the scene IPA announced

2107
01:29:36,040 --> 01:29:38,809
that this is an open license pattern,

2108
01:29:38,810 --> 01:29:40,274
you can withdraw.

2109
01:29:40,274 --> 01:29:42,714
You can withdraw your application

2110
01:29:42,714 --> 01:29:45,194
application for for for open lessons

2111
01:29:45,194 --> 01:29:47,789
so so once you announce your pattern

2112
01:29:47,789 --> 01:29:50,442
is open lessons the patterns you you

2113
01:29:50,442 --> 01:29:53,975
need to follow a rule similar to

2114
01:29:53,975 --> 01:29:57,364
the to the friend friend agreement.

2115
01:29:57,364 --> 01:30:01,438
Yeah yeah. That patterns type of rules.

2116
01:30:01,440 --> 01:30:05,290
OK. No discrimination. Yeah. Yeah.

2117
01:30:05,290 --> 01:30:06,557
Oh, OK. Thank you.

2118
01:30:06,557 --> 01:30:09,193
I'm just kind of a what's the best term

2119
01:30:09,193 --> 01:30:11,485
to describe just playing devil's advocate?

2120
01:30:11,490 --> 01:30:13,345
I actually a question just occur to

2121
01:30:13,345 --> 01:30:15,389
me related to the audience question.

2122
01:30:15,390 --> 01:30:17,777
If you really don't want to license

2123
01:30:17,777 --> 01:30:19,560
your patent to a company,

2124
01:30:19,560 --> 01:30:21,800
let's say you put it in the open

2125
01:30:21,800 --> 01:30:22,360
license system,

2126
01:30:22,360 --> 01:30:24,550
then all of a sudden this

2127
01:30:24,550 --> 01:30:25,645
company approached you.

2128
01:30:25,650 --> 01:30:29,178
Can you then say, oh, I want to withdraw?

2129
01:30:29,180 --> 01:30:31,932
Uh, no, at that time, you cannot withdraw.

2130
01:30:31,932 --> 01:30:32,276
Yeah.

2131
01:30:32,276 --> 01:30:32,620
No.

2132
01:30:32,620 --> 01:30:35,135
Yeah, because the other party

2133
01:30:35,135 --> 01:30:37,425
has already approached trust.

2134
01:30:37,425 --> 01:30:39,805
Yeah. Already approached you.

2135
01:30:39,810 --> 01:30:40,337
Yeah.

2136
01:30:40,337 --> 01:30:40,864
Yeah.

2137
01:30:40,864 --> 01:30:44,553
So the actually in the open license

2138
01:30:44,553 --> 01:30:47,364
reading the CMP is the play the

2139
01:30:47,364 --> 01:30:50,069
role of a kind of platform,

2140
01:30:50,070 --> 01:30:51,566
actually see an IPA.

2141
01:30:51,566 --> 01:30:54,365
They have a great concern that they

2142
01:30:54,365 --> 01:30:56,750
may have kind of responsibility

2143
01:30:56,750 --> 01:30:58,658
in publishing and announcing

2144
01:30:58,734 --> 01:31:00,570
the relevant information.

2145
01:31:00,570 --> 01:31:02,718
They don't want to take any

2146
01:31:02,718 --> 01:31:04,150
liability in this region.

2147
01:31:04,150 --> 01:31:06,845
They are only working at a platform

2148
01:31:06,845 --> 01:31:08,430
they providing organizes the

2149
01:31:08,430 --> 01:31:10,245
information for for the users,

2150
01:31:10,250 --> 01:31:11,354
the users, they,

2151
01:31:11,354 --> 01:31:13,562
these they they looking for those

2152
01:31:13,562 --> 01:31:15,299
information on the platform, yeah.

2153
01:31:15,299 --> 01:31:16,346
OK, thank you.

2154
01:31:16,346 --> 01:31:19,459
And going back to the first part of

2155
01:31:19,459 --> 01:31:21,819
the audience question regarding Article

2156
01:31:21,819 --> 01:31:24,989
14 invention made by state owned company.

2157
01:31:24,990 --> 01:31:27,608
The government has a right to license,

2158
01:31:27,610 --> 01:31:29,954
I guess, to forcefully licensed at Penn as

2159
01:31:29,954 --> 01:31:32,480
long as they're reasonable compensation.

2160
01:31:32,480 --> 01:31:34,919
I read it as very similar to the sort

2161
01:31:34,919 --> 01:31:37,779
of March in rights in the United States.

2162
01:31:37,780 --> 01:31:42,425
Do three of you have any experience,

2163
01:31:42,425 --> 01:31:44,550
experience or actually are you

2164
01:31:44,550 --> 01:31:47,256
aware of any marching orders,

2165
01:31:47,256 --> 01:31:50,670
marching rights exercised by the government,

2166
01:31:50,670 --> 01:31:51,544
yet no,

2167
01:31:51,544 --> 01:31:55,040
I don't think there is a precedent case.

2168
01:31:55,040 --> 01:31:55,784
Yeah, OK.

2169
01:31:55,784 --> 01:31:58,016
No, no Case No president case.

2170
01:31:58,020 --> 01:32:01,218
And also this is an article,

2171
01:32:01,220 --> 01:32:04,616
uh specifically for state owned company.

2172
01:32:04,620 --> 01:32:06,852
It has nothing to do with a foreign company.

2173
01:32:06,860 --> 01:32:07,650
Yeah.

2174
01:32:07,650 --> 01:32:08,440
OK.

2175
01:32:10,750 --> 01:32:12,670
I think this is another way to see.

2176
01:32:12,670 --> 01:32:15,722
Well, see Holly roots will be deployed

2177
01:32:15,722 --> 01:32:18,470
at some point. OK. Thank you.

2178
01:32:18,470 --> 01:32:23,948
So we we are actually at a little over time.

2179
01:32:23,950 --> 01:32:25,994
So we this goes to this web

2180
01:32:25,994 --> 01:32:28,260
and R goes to 11:00 o'clock.

2181
01:32:28,260 --> 01:32:29,470
So we are over time.

2182
01:32:29,470 --> 01:32:33,889
So I want to thank again all our speakers

2183
01:32:33,889 --> 01:32:38,666
for excellent presentations for I think

2184
01:32:38,666 --> 01:32:42,412
hopefully a useful Q&A period for everyone.

2185
01:32:42,412 --> 01:32:44,869
I think this is a very interesting.

2186
01:32:44,870 --> 01:32:46,074
I've learned a couple of new things.

2187
01:32:46,080 --> 01:32:48,010
So again appreciate this very

2188
01:32:48,010 --> 01:32:49,940
much and thank you all.

2189
01:32:49,940 --> 01:32:52,406
And a reminder to the audience,

2190
01:32:52,410 --> 01:32:56,064
please go ahead and take the post.

2191
01:32:56,070 --> 01:32:58,910
When our survey so that we can continually

2192
01:32:58,910 --> 01:33:01,566
help to improve these webinars and

2193
01:33:01,566 --> 01:33:03,708
get you the best information we can.

2194
01:33:03,710 --> 01:33:04,920
Thank you again very much.

2195
01:33:04,920 --> 01:33:07,302
Sorry, sorry Lynn actually forgot to

2196
01:33:07,302 --> 01:33:09,322
answer an important question several

2197
01:33:09,322 --> 01:33:11,173
people asked about the slides.

2198
01:33:11,173 --> 01:33:13,088
I want to quickly mention.

2199
01:33:13,090 --> 01:33:15,110
This event is actually recorded

2200
01:33:15,110 --> 01:33:17,957
I think two to three weeks once

2201
01:33:17,957 --> 01:33:19,928
we go through some steps,

2202
01:33:19,928 --> 01:33:23,204
it will be available on PTO website

2203
01:33:23,204 --> 01:33:25,978
and also the slides pending.

2204
01:33:25,980 --> 01:33:28,350
A speaker permission will be all

2205
01:33:28,350 --> 01:33:30,895
posted as well and and we just one

2206
01:33:30,895 --> 01:33:32,873
last thing actually two or three or

2207
01:33:32,873 --> 01:33:34,847
even four questions came in that we

2208
01:33:34,847 --> 01:33:37,199
are not going to have time to address.

2209
01:33:37,200 --> 01:33:40,945
It all relates to the CFIUS and

2210
01:33:40,945 --> 01:33:43,349
the newer version of CFIUS.

2211
01:33:43,350 --> 01:33:45,370
I think it's called Firrma.

2212
01:33:45,370 --> 01:33:45,910
Yeah,

2213
01:33:45,910 --> 01:33:46,450
maybe.

2214
01:33:46,450 --> 01:33:49,690
I'm not sure how much experience

2215
01:33:49,690 --> 01:33:51,942
Lynn has with regard to both,

2216
01:33:51,942 --> 01:33:54,078
but maybe we can address those questions

2217
01:33:54,078 --> 01:33:55,974
through email by Lynn or something

2218
01:33:55,974 --> 01:33:58,478
we kind of run out of time this time.

2219
01:33:58,480 --> 01:33:59,383
Yes, thank you.

2220
01:33:59,383 --> 01:34:00,286
I can't wait.

2221
01:34:00,290 --> 01:34:01,496
We can talk about this later.

2222
01:34:01,500 --> 01:34:01,738
Yeah,

2223
01:34:01,738 --> 01:34:03,166
that's a that's a long story,

2224
01:34:03,170 --> 01:34:03,520
but.

2225
01:34:05,630 --> 01:34:07,088
Yeah. OK. Alright.

2226
01:34:07,088 --> 01:34:09,518
Thank you all very much.

2227
01:34:09,520 --> 01:34:12,248
OK. Thank you, everybody.

2228
01:34:12,250 --> 01:34:14,730